Joe Blow and his family fly once a year on super saver tickets. Do you think they or the business travelers who are staying home due to this nonsense are they ones who financially support the airlines?

TSA keeping the terrorists away? That's specious logic. Look, I have a rock that keeps terrorists away. By your reasoning, each are equally effective. Shall we replace the TSA with my more economical rock?

Where could we spend tax $$$ besides the black hole of the TSA? Well, education comes immediately to mind along with about a half-dozen social programs and paying down the deficit.



------------------
"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Howdy,

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif Beautiful baby - you actually think the TSA has done something positive to increase my security. Whatever drugs you are on, I could use some - they must be hot.

Less laudable is your feeling that 100 PAX could not easily overcome 25 terrorists. Let me explain something, before 9/11 we all thought if we shut up and sat down eventually we'd get home to our spouses and children. Today we know unless we take drastic and lethal action we and countless other innocent souls will die. We may well kill ourselves and our families on board, but better that than we sit idly and do nothing allowing not only ourselves, but also innocents on the ground to die. To a man, to a woman, to a child - no American will sit idle again in the face of terrorists.

Business travel cutbacks have significantly hurt the airline industry. And that has hurt us as frequent flyers.

I know of two people, personally who have cut their travel in the past 12 months from 100k and 130k respectivly last year to 40 and 50k this year. Why? Because last year and for many years prior they choose to fly out when customers or employees wanted to talk - it was good for moral and they didn't mind the flight.

Today - they hate the hassel of extra security, so they make due whenever they can with driving in 25% or video conference in 25% and have cut their travel down. So the TSA has indeed hurt the airline business. Is this a statistically relevant number? Of course not - it's a bit of qualitative not quanitative research.

/flame off

I'm still flying - and the TSA can kiss my hairy ***.

Keep the faith,

Pakse

---edited for gramer.

[This message has been edited by Pakse (edited 10-27-2002).]

Okay http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif I love the scented ones especially...

This is getting kind of heated, so I won't address the pros and cons of the TSA directly. I will however say I've dealt with them a few times, mostly in BOS, and was once flagged for a thorough, but polite, search. No big deal.

What I'm surprised is by the perception that extra security is still so disruptive that it's keeping the biz flyers away.

Most biz flyers are elite at their respective airlines, and if they are at a reasonably major airport (major as far as their airline is concerned), they'll probably go through some sort of elite security line. This cuts down the time significantly, at least in my limited experience (a few times at ORD and BOS). So, what exactly is all this massive inconvenience that is causing biz travellers to forego visting their clients? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous! I know this argument was made, correctly, in the months right after 9/11, but I don't think it applies anymore.

Has anybody here who has elite status on an airline stood more than 30 minutes in a security line in the last 3 months, when flying on that airline???

It seems to me the reason biz travellers have disappeared has to do with the economy, the (still) high cost of biz travel, and the prevalence of cheap alternative technology (video conferencing, etc).

To say that the TSA is kind of a pain is probably true. To say that they're hurting the economy and keeping biz travellers away is just trying to be sensationalistic IMO.

Most airports *don't* have elite-status lines. A few majors do, but most of the rest do not. Having said that, it's not an hour-long security line that is my biggest problem. My biggest problems are INCONSISTENTLY and a LACK OF SECURITY GUIDELINES that I, as a traveler, can follow in order to avoid being unnecessarily violated and harassed.

TSA needs to (1) determine what their scope is and how to accurately screen passengers to achieve a set of stated objectives, (2) roll out the same procedures to every airport in the US, and (3) eliminate unnecessary harassment of people when it does not contribute to the achievement of the stated objectives. (i.e., the secondary gate-harassment of people who have successfully passed through security already)

Until this happens, I'm traveling less and taking a lot of 300- to 500-mile road trips that I used to fly. I still take the trips that I *have* to, but I look for alternatives to flying for both business and personal reasons whenever possible.

Taxes and fees on my last round trip were 37% on top of the airfare. We are pumping TENS OF BILLIONS of dollars into this black hole. Somebody has to be accountable for fixing the problems.

No, I dont think do but you said it.

As for your TSA and keeping terrorists away using a rock. Yeah, that's really a logical comparison. Gee, how could I ever fight off a comparison to the TSA and a rock. Wow, I'm overwhelmed ;-)

There is a reason we refer to things to after 9-11. That's because there was a 9-11. Let us not forget that 4 planes were taken over by 19 men with nothing more than determination (you're forgetting that) and box cutters. A simple tool they got through security. We're not making this up, this was fact. They got through security with box cutters. To say that our current security is worse than before, in my opinion, is wrong. I feel we're better off. Thank the Democrats for wanting to federalize the TSA, Bush didn't want to.

If you think that NO plane will ever again be hijacked because of passengers, well...keep thinking that. I certainly don't know if will never happen again or not. And I'm not willing to bet any lives on it. Apparently you are.

The massive inconvenience is that no one wants to have their person or belongings searched without probable cause. Harassment is still harassment whether it takes one minute or one hour. Business travelers ARE staying away because of the hassle factor from the TSA. If you don't believe me, feel free to search the In the News forum and see for yourself. Unless you believe that all the newspapers and study groups are just lying to cover up for the airlines' mis-management?



------------------
"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

You keep focusing on the actual tool that was used. Open your eyes and your mind: the tool is irrelevant. 11 September happened because people cooperated with terrorists and because pilots opened the cockpit doors. Box cutters did not cause 11 Sept. No random gate harassment did not cause 11 Sept. 11 Sept. could have just as easily happened if the terrorists used martial arts and broke a couple of peoples' necks.


By acquiescing to the jackass "random security" mandated by the TSA, you actually are risking lives if you believe we are any safer because you can't bring a pool cue on the airplane or because you want to humiliate someone with an unwarranted search before getting on the airplane. Life is a risk - you want to be 100% safe, stay home.

This is the United States of America, not Nazi Germany. The actions of random harassment without probable cause are absolutely disgusting with respect to the principles upon which this nation was founded. I have no desire to trade my liberty for some nonsense "random security" system that is destroying the very thing it is supposedly protecting.



------------------
"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

You're right. Screening has nothing to do with safety. Sky Marshalls have nothing to do with safety. Matching bags to passengers has nothing to do with safety. Tougher cockpit doors have nothing to do with safety, and neither for that matter do fighter escorts.

All enhanced security procedures are frankly irrelevant, because if something did ever happen in-flight, I just need a seatmate like this lady had and all will be well...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2346319.stm

Of course some of it is cosmetic (if anything in an attempt to reassure people flying is safe, not to drive them away). But at the end of the day I started this thread as a response to TSA Bashing, not to try to engender more of it!

Honestly, you come over to Travelbuzz to pay the Americans a compliment and what happens? They just start tearing themselves to pieces! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif

At the end of the day, having been reading the boards here I was expecting huge queues, rude agents and an unpleasant experience on my recent trip. Actually, there were minimal queues and professional personnel. My experience was positive. And could be improved upon only by the provision of a shoehorn.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif That compliment is MINE, d@mmit! Wingnut meant ME!! Go crawl back under that rock, you DEMONS!

Yeah Wingnut, this is all your fault! ;-)

Yes. I fly out of DFW and LAX. I have Platinum status on AA, and they do not have elite lines at LAX anymore (at least the dates and times I fly), and I have never ever seen one at DFW.

Do I wait 30 minutes all the time? No. I never wait long at LAX at all, even without elite lines. DFW is a different story. I have waited for decent amounts of time.

Remember, not all biz. travelrs are elite. there are lots of them that fly from time to time. Maybe 20% or less travel. The whole state of air travel has pushed some business travelers out of the airports. they drive, they tele-conference or video conference, or do things via email or whatever. If there is only marginal gains by actually being "on-site", then I too would forgo ait travel, even if there were no money issues for paying for the travel. Now, is the security to blame for all of it? Of course not, but it is a contributing factor. A minor one, but it still conributes to the overall hassel and pain in the butt nature of commercial air travel that exisits today.


[This message has been edited by jsmeeker (edited 10-28-2002).]

With my apologies, I must disagree with Spiff. I do believe that shortly after 9/11, many biz people did not travel because of security hassles. But then again, things really were bad then. I stood a couple of times on 2+ hour security lines, at DEN and LAX, late last year.

However, my feeling is that since then, things have gotten a lot better. Between better trained staff, lower number of flyers and flights, and elite security lines in some airports, I have not spent more than half an hour in a security line in several months, nor do I know anyone that has.

I have not seen any news reports in the biz media (WSJ, Bweek, Fortune, FT) in the last several weeks mentioning any major concerns about security delays and their negative impact on biz travel. Maybe I'm just reading the wrong sources. Or maybe you're quoting old material.

So maybe it's not the time factor, but the hassle and intrusiveness of it all. Again, I feel this claim that biz people avoid flying because they don't like to be searched is hard to believe. If the trip is worth taking to begin with, because it has value in generating new business, or keeping old business alive, then no biz person worth their pay will refuse to go because they don't like to be wanded or searched. That's just preposterous.

Is the system annoying? Yes. It is inefficient? Perhaps. Is it useful? I'm not sure. Is it such a burden I'd avoid important business travel? Certainly not.

I'm guessing the people that feel that TSA is an unreasonable violation of their God given rights are the same people that hate seat belt and helmet laws, getting carded for buying alcohol and cigarettes, etc. It's a different view of life, I guess.

GMM: If there was a particular precinct in Boston that was known for police that randomly stopped and groped people with no probable cause, would you continue to go to that neighborhood very often? Sure, you'd go if you had urgent business there, but would you go if you could find another way to get your business done?

This has nothing to do with seatbelt, helmets, or drinking laws. In each of those cases there are very *precise* rules by which we, as a society, have agreed to live. In fact, these laws in most states are written to PREVENT Gestapo/TSA tactics: cops cannot randomly pull cars over to check for seatbelts.

The unfortunate fact is that 9/11 did happen, and our intelligence agencies are telling us that the threat of terrorism is even worse today than it was on 9/10. Comparing air transportation to driving cars is comparing apples to oranges - it can't be done. Furthermore, no one is advocating pulling cars over to random search for seatbelts. Despite what some may believe, I am actually opposed to police road blocks to randomly check for seatbelts, drunk drivers, etc. But that's neither here nor there.

If you find air transportation not to your liking, get used to it because that won't change significantly anytime soon.