enviroian

I was thinking about this flying over the Gulf of Mexico yesterday. What parameters are required? Is it based on "X" amount of flying time over open water? For example, MIA-CUN undoubtedly is 99% flying over water. Is ETOPS required?

Clark Casual

ETOPS means Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards. It is a certification that permits twin engine aircraft to fly routes which may, at the time, be 60 minutes flying time from the nearest airport that is suitable for an emergency landing.
More informally known as Engines Turn or Passengers Swim.

Using your example, MIA-CUN is a one hour 45 minute flight, which is definitely within the range for either a return to MIA if less than half way, or continue to CUN if more.

enviroian

Thanks--that is what I was looking for.

Herb687

<redacted>
In case you haven't noticed, the alleged expertise posted on FT is often wrong/misleading. Especially when it comes to aviation technical matters or, say, revenue management.

At least so far, the answers here are broadly accurate though with caveats. ETOPS hasn't stood for "twin engine" in a while. It's just Extended Operations now (ETOPS practice has been expanded to ALL operations beyond 180 minutes from a suitable diversion airport). Though Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim will always be a fundamental law of the sky!

Probably also worth pointing out that the 60 or 180 minute rules are based on a suitable airport and at OEI (one engine inoperative) cruise speed. The Q routes across the Gulf between Florida and Louisiana certainly keep you within 60 minutes of a diversion airport at all times.

Back when DFW-TPA was operated with a mix of 738 and MD-80 frequencies, the MD-80s never flew the Q routes. They would typically file J2 to the Crestview VOR, then I believe Seminole, before picking up the arrival (which might have still nicked the corner of the Gulf SE of TLH/NW of Cedar Key). Most likely the MD-80s were not life vest equipped. So, there may be non-ETOPS reasons for a certain plane needing to stay closer to land. At least in the past, life vest/life raft didn't strictly tie to whether a plane was ETOPS or not (i.e. I remember a "limited overwater" 727 subfleet...)

<redacted> They also often get pricing and yield management wrong.

MIAFlyer

In the mid-late 90s, I often flew MIA-SJU in a 727. Have no idea if they were ETOPS or not since there are so many diversion airports along the way.

winston vickers

MIAFlyer, ETOPS is for Twin Engine. 727's were 3 engines.

JDiver

One can look up the ETOPS rule for the aircraft they’re flying and then select for that rule using Great Circle Mapper. (The areas shaded in darker blue are restricted because, in this case, they’d not be allowed under ETOPS 180 rules.) 787s come with ETOPS 330 “out of the box”, as long as they are properly equipped, crewed and maintained, though certain Rolls Royce engined 787s were limited to ETOPS 140. (I flew on Aloha’s 737-200 ETOPS aircraft, a bit of an odd aircraft for ETOPS but necessary for some longer overwater flights, when I flew to / from Midway / MDY.)




ETOPS 180 on EZE-SYD



ETOPS 330 on same route

LarryJ

While that was true back when B727s were flying passengers in the US, the definition of ETOPS has since been expanded to include aircraft with more than two engines.

This link is to an FAA Advisory Circular on Extended Operations (ETOPS).

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...cumentid/73587

YVR Cockroach

The aircraft might have to be classified as Extended Over Water (EOW) which means life vests and life rafts - not just flotation seat cushions.

http://www.winslowliferaft.com/fars.html

Tanic

Most flights pass directly over EYW and within dead stick gliding distance of HAV.



MIA-CUN