the phoenix

I’m not as in the game as I used to be regarding the travel industry. Just Looked at one airlines new 787 and see the have Econ, prem Econ, and “businessfirst”.

looking at a few other airlines, looks like I’m seeing only 2 class configurations. So generally speaking p, is first going to become history as time goes on?

YVR Cockroach

You're U.S. based. The quick answer is that U.S. airlines offer "first" (Dom F) on domestic routes but rarely did they offer first (int'l F) on long haul international, at least in the past 2-3 decades, and if they did (certain airlines), it was usually only on the largest aircraft. As the seats turned into recliners, the old school int'l F (virtually identical to Dom F) got renamed as (int'l) BC.

FWIW, airlines such as Delta, Continental and Northwest did not offer int'l Fin the decade or two before they body-snatched/merged. USAir tried it for a while.

A true PE products (at least different seats from Y) is still rare for U.S. airlines.

GUWonder

American, United, USAir have had first class cabins in addition to business class for long-haul flights, TWA and PanAm too.

the phoenix

I see so I guess when I see KLM, Latam, Turkish and ElAl offer BC , it’s the new “first” ?

YVR Cockroach

No, more like "that's the highest cabin we can reliably fill" (i.e., with paying pax, not mileage or non-revs). Sometime before the '80s, most airlines had F & Y. With the advent of int'l BC with recliner seats (some airlines, such as NW, had BC cabins that resemble today's PE) , most airlines dropped int'l F (usually P fare code). Some tried to hold on to F for a while but just dropped to BC (known as J or C as fare codes) as the top cabin. Generally int'l F was kept for select routes and not all a/c had them. e.g., while both BA and AF operated 777s, some only had BC while others had F too. Generally airlines based in countries where there were very high yield markets - tied to having major financial centres (notably Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, U.K., Germany and France) had FC. The Dutch are too cheap hence why KLM only offers WBC.

Some mentioned US. US only had P (one row!) on the A330-300s and never on the 767-200s. US also went bankrupt shortly after A330s came into service. UA and AA were the only U.S. airlines to widely offer F/P.

gfunkdave

Plus, there are specific requirements (defined by IATA or ICAO or one of those orgs) of what constitutes "F" vs "J" vs "PE" and I think many airlines have found it too expensive to offer true F service.

warakorn

Are you serious?

lhrsfo

Most of the US airlines offered First Class seats but had little to no concept of what First Class service was and so found it unprofitable as US customers were inclined to fly private instead. Business Class seats then improved markedly, making the USA First Class an uncompetitive product. The savvy US customers also found that the non-US airlines had much better service and so booked with them instead. But most of the major quality airlines continue to offer First and they differentiate it substantially from Business, with much larger seats or suites, fantastic food and great service on the ground, whereas Business Class tends towards flying dormitory-type service.

BearX220

It ought to be noted that most major carriers' business class is nicer in most ways -- lie-flats, personal space / "suites," IFE, etc. -- than F class was before business class was invented. Take a look at the F cabins of BOAC or Pan Am 747s in the 1970s. moderate recline, crowded seating. A lot of today's J-class habitues would look upon those service standards as some kind of Geneva Convention violation.

warakorn

Compare QR Qsuites (a J-product) with the QR F product aboard the A380.
Not much difference. Travel vloggers claim that Qsuites in all is better than QR F.

YVR Cockroach

Indeed, int'l F (before it was fare coded as P) seats were very similar to domestic F seats of today. Just a bit more recline and no leg rests, and seat pitch (but so did Economy in the day), so much so that a FA could walk/sueeze in front of you and set up the table with "linen" and cutlery, instead of just handing over a tray from the aisle.

CPRich

Can you provide a link to one of these? I've never of heard of it., I would have thought the relatively detailed History of Airline Classes and Cabins would have such a reference, but don't see one. A dozen "what's the difference between first class and business class articles" similarly had nothing, typically "The first and most important thing to remember is that all seat specs and luxuries (or lack thereof), depend on what airline you’re flying, what airplane you’re on and if you’re on a short or long-haul flight."

Zeeb

That was true until the last few years but now Delta, American, and United all offer real PE cabins.

darthbimmer

I regard US airlines offering "businessfirst" service without also offering "first class" on many flights as a way to normalize what these classes mean across domestic and international sectors. For years before this we had a domestic "first class" product that was inferior to the "business class" offering on most overseas routes. And the "first class" service on long-haul overseas routes was unmatched by anything domestically or within North America. Now customers can select "businessfirst" and "first class" with consistent expectations what each class of service means regardless of which geographic sector(s) it's in.

gfunkdave

You know, it may very well be a figment of my imagination. I just did a quick search and couldn't find anything. It's one of those things I think I heard a long time ago and just assumed was true, but maybe not...