Trump did ground them

I read that a bystander saw fire from one of the engines prior to the crash which would make it different from the previous crash. But a lot of people shorted Boeing today

[MENTION=20692]ian_btv[/MENTION], there is nothing definitive yet, but there is alot of suspicion from aviation authorities that the MCAS played a role in the crash. The below link gives a good background on this:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...stigation.html

Please let me know if you need further explanation on this.

I imagine Boeing will be trying to redo the software that appears (not proven AFAIK) to have flown two planes into the ground given a specific set of circumstances/inputs.

I suspect the huge established value of the 737 product brand was the driver. They did spend money on development anyway.

I bet if it had been an Airbus model, they would have grounded them immediately after the first crash.

Additional data reported by pilots whose planes did not crash but had problems of a similar nature to the Lion Air flight.

Estimates given on the news this morning were a 3 month grounding at minimum.

Anyone wondering why MAX planes are still in the air? Flight Radar shows some flying now, the morning after the ban. Granted its alot less but is there a penalty for the airlines for flying them anyway?

Could it be that the planned aircraft was a MAX, but they subbed in another 737 type, just haven't updated on Flight Radar? Or could there be dispensation to move empty aircraft back to home bases (without passengers on board?) I am guessing they need to bring the planes 'home' in some manner to be able to implement any inspections, fixes etc.

Update: Per Flight Radar:
MoreReminder: as art of the #737MAX grounding, operators are allowed to ferry (crew only, no passengers) the aircraft back to a base for storage. American Airlines is currently bringing 5 MAX 8 aircraft home.

If anyone at Boeing or the FAA signed off on problems or issues reported or identified by their engineers, they should surely be held accountable - legal proceedings with harsh financial punishment or sentences - setting an example and setting precedent has to happen ...

That being said, I'm also very, very suspicious of airline companies and pilot groups who have been intimately involved with this aircraft since its development and in its early months of operation. Why are reports >only now< slowly filtering in about similar problems having been experienced? No accident occurring from any of them, so it's OK to set them aside? Who is choosing to withhold such vital reports? Who is dragging their feet? Is it fear of retribution for profit loss or bad on-time performance? I'm calling on all involved to speak up - no matter which country you live in and what you may 'think of the US'. From the CEO of Air China to the most junior type-rated pilot at Southwest, it is the responsibility of ALL airline employees and flight crews to share this data with each other. Corporate secrecy or political barriers don't qualify here as reasons to not share information and experiences where anyone's safety is at risk. Simply put: the builders may well be at fault, but anyone who experienced or saw problems and chose to ignore them are equally culpable for the deaths from these two crashes.

Didn't see that. Very helpful, thanks!

Reports of things happening in flight happen all the time - and most of the time the general public never hear about them, and most of them time they are not serious issues. But when something happens (in any industry) that is catastrophic, you go back and say 'oh this could have been the same issue but not as severe, corrected, etc'. So if pilots report the nose moving up or down, but corrected it, it will have been logged, but nothing more may have been done. When an accident happens, and similar things are noted, they will go back and do a more thorough look. It is like recalled cars. One airbag misfires, could be a one off but will be logged somewhere. Several airbags misfire, more systemic problem, reported, someone may start investigating. Airbag misfires and causes a death, recall mandated. Not because they particularly care about human life, but because it will cost them a lot of money if a death occurred, they did nothing, and more deaths occur.

In the case of the 787 the problem was clearly the Lithium Ion batteries, and the solution was to replace them or get another version from a different vendor.

In the case of the MAX, the problem is not so clear cut. Both crashes are still under investigation. I have heard a few things, but the most likely culprit is an automated stall recovery system that is 1: poorly programmed and engaging unexpectly and 2: not included in the training for certifying pilots in the MAX.

THAT seems to be where as you say, Boeing has some process problems. Bad data can be fixed..computers are garbage in/garbage out. They should have detected this problem well before going to market with it.

But the fact that they didn't seem to include this system in recommended certification points to airlines is an unacceptible oversight. Worse, automated recovery systems have been fatal in the past, as was the case with the first gen Airbus A319's back in the 80's. Pilots can only over-ride such systems if they are told how to do it. Reverting to manual control should be on the first page of the "Congratulations on your purchase of your new MAX 8!" brochure.