Betawax

Would love to hear views on this. Frequently smell toxic fumes when flying (mainly on BAs old bangers!)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/aug/19/sick-crew-toxic-air-planes-frequent-flyers-ill?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Ldnn1

There have been a few articles about this over recent years. I have no idea how real or significant a problem it is, but I'm pretty certain the the air on the Tube must be far worse for those who use it every day. It is absolutely full of soot.

KARFA

What do you mean you frequently smell toxic fumes?

Betawax

errrrm I undertake the physiological process of respiration. During this process I intake air, usually around 20% oxygen. Quite often, whilst on planes, I'm subjected to air which smells like it may contain compounds that wouldn't be there if I had been, say, inside terminal 5.

Does that help answer your question?

KARFA

Not really.

What are the toxic fumes you are smelling? I am struggling to understand specifically what you think a toxic fumes smells like? I can't say I have ever been on any plane of any age for any airline and thought I am smelling toxic fumes.

flyingmonkie

Ditto. I smell them on trains quite a lot... well by "them" I usually mean the smell of burning plastic / hot oil / something but never on a plane. Unless you count the copious excretions of the person sitting next to me on my last PER-SYD jaunt.

I honestly think if I smelt burning or anything similar on a plane I would be a-ringing my call bell PDQ and imagine there would be quite a lot of panic around me.

marcusm1

I regularly fly A330s in Asia on another airline and there's always a blast of fumes when the engines are started sitting forward of the engines in J class. Smells like a slightly burnt petrol smell for want of a better word. Is 100% due to ignition of the engines and air being sucked into the cabin at that point

LTN Phobia

This thread was originally posted on the BA section of FlyerTalk but as the topic is not BA-specific, it has been moved to TravelBuzz for wider discussions.

LTN Phobia
Moderator: BA forum

flyingmonkie

And on the article itself I stopped having any time for it when it gave column inches to the incredibly bad use of statistics that compares the death rate of cabin crew in service and the Met Police.

LTN Phobia

That's probably the 'smell of kerosene' that can be caused depending on the procedures and the wind direction and different from the leaky oil seal that can lead to the 'toxic fume' issue in the aerotoxic syndrome (which is liked to the oil and organophosphate).

Betawax

Think we might be at an impasse here. Cant say I routinely sniff organic compounds. Or go around with a portable mass spec machine. But the chap below referring to kerosine might be onto something.

You're most fortunate to have a less efficient olfactory system than I!

KARFA

Well since I am a chemist by training and work in a chemical company (albeit not in a research role) I would say my chemical nose is pretty decent.

I can smell aviation fuel occasionally, and of course if you board at a remote stand from steps you can smell it. However that isn't toxic fumes, and neither is it what your linked article is referring to. Kerosene or aviation fuel smell is not a toxic fume.

HIDDY

Smells galore when flying in the old days especially on the prop planes....it was all part of the fun.
Do BA still have ''old bangers'' flying? If they do I'm sure they're perfectly safe even if they do smell a bit iffy.

LTN Phobia

The chappess here that mentioned the kerosine, with perhaps somewhat excessive familiarity with kerosene and oil etc. and an owner of hypersensitive nose such that it's a butt of jokes in the family.

Let me have a go at describing the relevant smells.

Let's simply say that the kerosene smell is an annoyance as it stinks - imagine the petrol station smell where you dripped some fuel and combine it with burnt diesel smell. Let's say go to a yacht yard and smell the diesel engine fumes - that's probably the best description, and it is the smell you can experience from time to time during engine start-up or shutdown. Now this is unpleasant but by and large, not relevant to the aerotoxic syndrome.

The culprit in the aerotoxic syndrome is the organohophate from the burnt oil from leaky oil seals in the engine that then enter the aircraft interior through 'bleed air' contaminated with what you could call burnt oil, which is taken from the engine. Now, this situation smells very different from the kerosene smell.

The smell is more like a mixture of stinky wet dog and washing that had been left wet indoors for far too long combined with stinky wet socks from someone with a major feet-stink problem, and add in some burnt electrical smell and slightly melted plastic-like smell and you get the idea of this smell. Sorry about the silly description but this is the best I can relate to more of everyday smells (OK, those smells shouldn't be an everyday occurrence but much easier to relate to than "smell of burnt synthetic aviation oil"!). This smell also tends to happen more when the engines are running on high power (and therefore not during start-up or shutdown), i.e. in the initial stage of climb.

I've smelled both more times than I care to remember, but the 'fume' ones tended to happen on particular type of aircraft that is no longer seen often in passenger service, and it was still quite unusual, and very, very faint smell - probably not detectable to most people's nose.

In any case it appears that there are those who are more prone to being affected by the organophosphate than others, as there are many instances of known 'fume event' (as the oil fumes entering the cabin is known) where no-one suffered any consequences although most could smell it, and also where only very few people out of everyone on board were affected.

If you are personally concerned, the best defence is to fly on a 787. They don't use bleed air for the cabin so you wouldn't get a 'fume event'. But most likely you aren't one of those susceptible as there seem to be much fewer susceptible people among the population than those who are.


More likely that was the fuel smell. Avgas or JetA1 (basically kerosene). It's stinky but fine in a sense of the aerotoxic syndrome (not recommended for sniffing though! Some even like that smell but don't go there..)

Well, as you know they occasionally have pink bangers as you have reported here... And I don't think you got sick from it!

(For non-British/NZ/Aussie English speakers, bangers = sausages. For those who had not heard the story, HIDDY reported on BA forum with a photo of a rather pink sausage served on a BA flight, hence my "pink banger" comment....)

Betawax

So we continue?

As you're not research based you'll probably not be up to date with the latest coshh regs? Have a butchers - to paraphrase, kerosine fumes or "smells" are not a good thing floating around a plane or a lab! Therefore your final sentence is slap bang incorrect. I rest my case.

I'll see myself out.