Can force majeure work for you?
Jan 3, 2017, 6:52 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2016
Programs: Star Alliance
Posts: 28
Can force majeure work for you?
Hi there,
I tried searching but couldn't find anything similar.
I was wondering if anybody has ever had a circumstance where force majeure has applied to them and not the airline (who use it to cancel flights due to weather etc). My partner has become pregnant and we were due to fly to a destination where Zika is spreading, so will not be able to fly due to safety...my lawyer partner thinks this would be a case of force majeure (we were actively trying not to become pregnant by using contraception although I dont know how we'd be expected to prove this).
I've not heard of force majeure being argued from the customer point of view so was wondering if anyone has ever tried?
Thanks,
John
I tried searching but couldn't find anything similar.
I was wondering if anybody has ever had a circumstance where force majeure has applied to them and not the airline (who use it to cancel flights due to weather etc). My partner has become pregnant and we were due to fly to a destination where Zika is spreading, so will not be able to fly due to safety...my lawyer partner thinks this would be a case of force majeure (we were actively trying not to become pregnant by using contraception although I dont know how we'd be expected to prove this).
I've not heard of force majeure being argued from the customer point of view so was wondering if anyone has ever tried?
Thanks,
John
Jan 3, 2017, 9:14 am
#2
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: AVL
Programs: DL DM MM; Hilton Diamond; Hertz 5*
Posts: 706
Have I tried it - no.
Do I think it would work - no.
1. FM does not apply when the event is the natural consequence of an avoidable action. Pregnancy is avaoidable.
2. Pregnancy - the event - does not create impossibility - you can still fly. You don't want to fly - due to Zika - but that is a choice not an impossibility.
There are a few more holes - but you get the idea. I would call the airline and explain. Maybe your tickets can be used up to a year later - and the airline might agree to waive the penalty.
If you are dead set on this path, then see if a doctor will say that, in his medical opinion, it is unsafe for you to fly. That will be stronger than a standalone FM position.
Do I think it would work - no.
1. FM does not apply when the event is the natural consequence of an avoidable action. Pregnancy is avaoidable.
2. Pregnancy - the event - does not create impossibility - you can still fly. You don't want to fly - due to Zika - but that is a choice not an impossibility.
There are a few more holes - but you get the idea. I would call the airline and explain. Maybe your tickets can be used up to a year later - and the airline might agree to waive the penalty.
If you are dead set on this path, then see if a doctor will say that, in his medical opinion, it is unsafe for you to fly. That will be stronger than a standalone FM position.
Jan 3, 2017, 9:42 am
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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It's written into the COC to benefit the airline not you. Sometimes they will make an exception with a Dr note bot other than that, travel insurance may have been helpful. That reminds me time to get annual travel insurance.
Jan 3, 2017, 9:59 am
#4
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: SFO
Programs: AA, UA lowly commoner
Posts: 782
Force majeur would have to make it impossible to perform your contractual obligations. You do not have a contractual obligation to actually fly. Your contractual obligation is to pay for your ticket and abide by the T&Cs.
Furthermore, people who become too sick to fly, even if that's due to an epidemic, are obliged to abide by the T&Cs re refunds, rebooking fees, etc. That's one reason there's travel insurance. So it's hard to see why it would still apply here. That's not to say that the airline might not cut you some slack, just that they're not obligated to do so.
Furthermore, people who become too sick to fly, even if that's due to an epidemic, are obliged to abide by the T&Cs re refunds, rebooking fees, etc. That's one reason there's travel insurance. So it's hard to see why it would still apply here. That's not to say that the airline might not cut you some slack, just that they're not obligated to do so.
Jan 3, 2017, 10:15 am
#5
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: LH SEN; BA Gold
Posts: 8,405
In the B2C (C as in passenger, i.e. both private and professional travelers) relations I don't see that many situations, where the customer could possibly invoke force majeure.
Situations that make it impossible to travel are usually not covered by force majeure, but by other mechanisms (depending on the applicable law of course).
Last edited by WorldLux; Jan 3, 2017 at 10:21 am
Jan 3, 2017, 6:21 pm
#7
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While there's certainly no guarantee, this is an unusual enough combination of circumstances that the airline personnel might be sympathetic and/or might see that they're not opening themselves up to some precedent that will apply in a widespread manner.
Certainly seek a refund, but don't be shocked if the airline presses instead for giving you a travel credit that you have to use in a year.
And +1 on the congratulations!
Jan 3, 2017, 6:34 pm
#8
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: IAH
Posts: 488
And when you call, don't for a second mention force majeure. If you start getting into law/contracts, they will shut down so fast.
For the record, you say you will be unable to fly safely - the airlines will say you can absolutely fly safely, it's not their responsibility that you feel that being outside the airport in unsafe.
For the record, you say you will be unable to fly safely - the airlines will say you can absolutely fly safely, it's not their responsibility that you feel that being outside the airport in unsafe.
Jan 4, 2017, 6:34 am
#9
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
Hi there,
I tried searching but couldn't find anything similar.
I was wondering if anybody has ever had a circumstance where force majeure has applied to them and not the airline (who use it to cancel flights due to weather etc). My partner has become pregnant and we were due to fly to a destination where Zika is spreading, so will not be able to fly due to safety...my lawyer partner thinks this would be a case of force majeure (we were actively trying not to become pregnant by using contraception although I dont know how we'd be expected to prove this).
I've not heard of force majeure being argued from the customer point of view so was wondering if anyone has ever tried?
Thanks,
John
I tried searching but couldn't find anything similar.
I was wondering if anybody has ever had a circumstance where force majeure has applied to them and not the airline (who use it to cancel flights due to weather etc). My partner has become pregnant and we were due to fly to a destination where Zika is spreading, so will not be able to fly due to safety...my lawyer partner thinks this would be a case of force majeure (we were actively trying not to become pregnant by using contraception although I dont know how we'd be expected to prove this).
I've not heard of force majeure being argued from the customer point of view so was wondering if anyone has ever tried?
Thanks,
John
Jan 4, 2017, 6:42 am
#10
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
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This is not "force majeure".
This is "ring the airline and ask" and if they refuse fall back on the "ring your travel insurance".
Because you ALWAYS have travel insurance - right? (If not - you should. Though it might very well be that they won't cover this instance).
This is "ring the airline and ask" and if they refuse fall back on the "ring your travel insurance".
Because you ALWAYS have travel insurance - right? (If not - you should. Though it might very well be that they won't cover this instance).
Jan 4, 2017, 7:51 am
#11
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
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Posts: 50,262
This is far from FM and your lawyer friend ought to know this.
But, maybe a few minutes work will reveal that the carrier + destination have a Zika waiver in place, that your travel insurance covers this situation or that there are many other much simpler alternatives.
Rather than speaking in the abstract, why not provide the exact details, e.g., routing, carrier and the like, and someone here will have had an experience. Otherwise, all you will get is anecdotes about what happened to someone somewhere sometime.
But, maybe a few minutes work will reveal that the carrier + destination have a Zika waiver in place, that your travel insurance covers this situation or that there are many other much simpler alternatives.
Rather than speaking in the abstract, why not provide the exact details, e.g., routing, carrier and the like, and someone here will have had an experience. Otherwise, all you will get is anecdotes about what happened to someone somewhere sometime.
Jan 4, 2017, 8:37 pm
#13
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,735
Hi there,
I tried searching but couldn't find anything similar.
I was wondering if anybody has ever had a circumstance where force majeure has applied to them and not the airline (who use it to cancel flights due to weather etc). My partner has become pregnant and we were due to fly to a destination where Zika is spreading, so will not be able to fly due to safety...my lawyer partner thinks this would be a case of force majeure (we were actively trying not to become pregnant by using contraception although I dont know how we'd be expected to prove this).
I've not heard of force majeure being argued from the customer point of view so was wondering if anyone has ever tried?
Thanks,
John
I tried searching but couldn't find anything similar.
I was wondering if anybody has ever had a circumstance where force majeure has applied to them and not the airline (who use it to cancel flights due to weather etc). My partner has become pregnant and we were due to fly to a destination where Zika is spreading, so will not be able to fly due to safety...my lawyer partner thinks this would be a case of force majeure (we were actively trying not to become pregnant by using contraception although I dont know how we'd be expected to prove this).
I've not heard of force majeure being argued from the customer point of view so was wondering if anyone has ever tried?
Thanks,
John
Jan 4, 2017, 8:57 pm
#14
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: YVR
Programs: UA Premier Platinum
Posts: 3,759
Some airlines do not even grant a refund upon death of the passenger, so I highly doubt pregnancy (an entirely avoidable occurrence) would invoke any principles of common law that death does not. However, many airlines are providing courtesy waivers to pax who became pregnant after booking a ticket to a Zika-affected country, allowing you to change your holiday to another country for free.
Courtesy waiver is airline-speak for "we don't want to be on the front of the newspaper as the cause of someone's child being born permanently disabled".
Courtesy waiver is airline-speak for "we don't want to be on the front of the newspaper as the cause of someone's child being born permanently disabled".
Jan 5, 2017, 4:01 am
#15
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2009
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The events which invoke force majeure on the airlines' part (eg volcanic ash clouds over Iceland etc.) are quite different from those which could invoke it on the passenger's part. The passenger's part of the contract is to pay for the ticket, not to fly the itinerary. So force majeure could only really apply to the bit around paying and it's difficult to see how that could happen as, even if payment systems are down, the debt is still there for when they are up and running again.