That is it for me, too. But what really got me to overcome my reluctance to pay more for business class on international flights, which I mostly fly for work, was not just the seat or that the experience could be nice, but that I had several absolutely miserable experiences in coach due to other passengers - e.g., belligerent drunk, odiferous seatmate, complaint about reclining seat on an overnight TATL flight. After the last time one of those things occurred, I thought I had to get out of international economy or I could just not take these international trips anymore. Getting there a day early would not make that any better.

I still rarely pay too much more for business class - one of the things I did was find out about FT and learn more about upgrading and looking for better deals. I have never had a bad experience in international business class, and I certainly can't say that about international economy.

Cloudship, some like jetblue allow anyone to buy extra (Y) seat with no problem. was interesting several jetblue staff seemed completely surprised when i had done so. you raise great additional factors/points in how people make determinations / value perceptions.

Ever wonder how many people who are in First actually paid for it? And please, don't start with the points routine because every single FF mile involved money changing hands at some point including those supposedly "free" ones IF you SPEND a certain amount of money using a credit card within a designated period.

What is even more interesting is how much First costs in terms of the number of FF miles you need for it vs. simply paying for it.

It was "worth it " to me when I flew from Florida to Perth, Australia, last year, and it was worth it when I flew to Europe this year.

For what you get vs. being "back there" which "gets there" the same time you do and whether or not you've figured out how to actually get sleep "back there" which a lot of people have, in fact, figured out...First has to be one of the biggest rip-offs going but so are a lot of things we do in life.

As I read the OP post I couldn't help but think they were trying to convince themselves that FIRST is not worth it because it is either rare or unobtainable for them

To me there is no question or doubt.....I fly FIRST as much as I can and it is worth every cent or mile I use regardless of the airline, plane or length of flight.

I pay for Business and First fares so I can go on whatever airline I like, stay wherever I like and not be restricted. In Australia you have to pay a percentage fee to use a credit card of about 1.5 to 3%. I figure with that extra amount I'd have to pay, I can just use my regular ATM card or cash and get the best price I can and just put the money I would of had to pay for that surcharge towards my airfares.

My husband is self-employed, so we pay for all our own travel.

For us, J is worth it (especially when flying TATL), because it means we receive better service from the moment we arrive at the airport, the opportunity to (more or less, let's be real here) relax in a lounge, rather than roam about in a crowded, loud airport (though there are oases -- a steakhouse at JFK's T8 with decent to good food, some lovely shops to peruse at FCO, that sort of thing).

Most of all, there is the more personalized service on board (when that is done right, it's a joy), and, of course, the bed. Ultimately, what you are really paying thousands of dollars for is the opportunity to have a decent night's sleep (often followed by a good quality cuppa or an espresso immediately following), to soften the blow of jet lag, aches and pains to the body after being on a long-haul, that sort of thing.

On a good flight, with good seats and service, you almost want it to be longer. Whether this is all worth the price is, I suppose, a factor of personal finances, as well as what you value in travel (and in life in general). For us, as middle-aged, middle class passengers who are financially stable, the answer is J is a good value for the money, and upgrading to F with miles (or money, when it is a decent proposition) is certainly worth it.

We also fly J when traveling to LatAm, and almost always fly F domestically (but that is for health reasons involving me, so a slightly different, and very personal, decision-making process).

Sadly, moving up a class or two in the cabin may not end those things. I have had my share of stinkers, drunks and complainers in biz and first as well. As a matter of fact, there tends to be more complainers up front who mistake being in the higher class cabin with being a VIP. However, they are all marginally easier to take if you are not cramped in like you are in steerage.

Would you pay 300 to sit in F? My guess would be yes. So, what about the people for whom 3000 is equivalent to 300 for you?

It's about % of income. If you earn 100k per year, 3000 dollars is 3% of your income..that's too much for a plane ticket. But if you earn 1 million per year, 3000 is .3% of your income...perfectly reasonable. That's the same as 300 to you.

I don't earn quite that much, but my frequent travels are paid for by my employer. I get to keep the miles. As such, I am not investing ANYTHING out of pocket most of the time..so for me, it's pretty much 0% of my income. Even better deal! However, sometimes I will op up out of pocket on domestic flights over 3 hours for a couple of hundred. I think it's worth it to be comfortable and to not have to ride with the kettles in the back.

Proudelitist, while others who earn little choose to spend it on F (etc)
and some who may have billions spend little (may be why theyre wealthy)

different people value different things a different amount
income/worth is only one factor impacting perceived value

Husband wanted a new tv and was eyeing a $5000 one. I said he was nuts and we weren't spending that much on a tv. Later on I thought about it and thought it was weird that I wasn't willing to spend $5,000 on a tv yet I'd happily pay $5000 for a single airfare. I guess what we spend is determined on what we value.

Regarding your question about which airline to use the points on - in the list I saw AirFrance (Skyteam), BA (OW) & Air Canada (Star) which seems a bit weird. I would guess that the airline you can choose is whoever gave you the points in the first place or maybe an alliance partner - the FT experts can weigh in on that.

In most instances, I cannot afford to fly Biz even though I like the extra space (as someone who is overweight). I have done 14-15 hour sectors in economy and it's not as bad as it seems. Having a quiet cabin without too much hustle & bustle makes it a lot easier - as does having considerate, clean co-passengers.

Having said that, twice this year I got the opportunity to pay for limited upgrades - you get lounge access & full cabin service without chauffeur service and mileage. On QR I paid $500 to upgrade to biz on NRT-DOH (almost 12 hours) and that was a no-brainer. It was great value for a really comfortable product (2-2-2 is completely fine when there is no one beside you ).

The other was a $1600 upgrade for Biz on EY from JFK to AUH. While this was way more expensive, I chose to go for it based on the following points
a) I was returning from a whirlwind trip to NY and knew I would be exhausted
b) I had a really hectic week at work ahead and wanted to be as rested as possible
c) A chance to try A380 Upper deck biz on a long-haul sector

I enjoyed both tremendously and would like to do it more regularly - that is based on its value compared to my requirements.

Also, I flew domestic F in the US because I had two pieces of luggage which would have cost me $60 on Delta and the fare difference was $75 between Y & F (SEA-LAX).

Ro

Much more than marginally, in my estimation. I'm sure there have been bad actors on some of the business or first class international flights I have taken, but I can't seem to recall any, probably due to my being comfortably holed up in my own little cubby with a champagne.

I agree. And I notice some of the colleagues I have who only fly economy saying business or first is not worth it seem to spend a lot of money on other things. Different personal preferences, clearly. (Also, some of those same people routinely pay a lot more for economy than I would because they procrastinate and buy last minute tickets.)

One of the positive outcomes of Delta's changes in their FF program is that first class fares do seem, at least on most of the routes I have looked at, to have come down in price considerably. Unfortunately not on a few key routes like east to west coast, but other flights. I am not sure Delta sees this as a true gain - I think it is a result of them now having to compete more for premium passengers.

This all pertains to Delta.

I hope I never have to fly coach internationally (long-haul) again - I usually am pressed for time and it is a 'night a day difference' being able to sleep laying down versus being in coach and then getting off the plane to go immediately to meetings. When I fly coach, I need a day to recuperate, when I fly business, I don't. I've found that for me and my work expenses, the best of both words is to by an upgradeable ticket with work funds and then upgrade using my miles.

For short-haul international (less than 4 hours), I think 1st class is a bit of a waste as they don't serve you a decent meal usually and the planes on many of these routes aren't yet upgraded so the difference between 1st class and delta comfort was actually negligible for me over the last year...< $100 for an upgrade = sure...>$100 = meh

For domestic flights, delta comfort suffices perfectly, but i love 1st class upgrades. Won't spend a lot of miles or dollars on getting into 1st.

Long and the short of it is that for me, with my current salary, I would never pay outright for 1st/business class, but am always looking for a way to get up there if it isn't too expensive.

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is the EXPERIENCE of 1st/business. The majority of time I sit in front, I often end up meeting some pretty interesting people and have had opportunities develop from that EXPERIENCE....only thing that happens in coach for me are negative events like getting exposed to TB or having to deal with the horror of a person next to me who should have been forced to buy two tickets because of their weight.

For me it depends on the situation. I'm of similar height (5' 11'') and it sounds like similar build but I've also had knee and shoulder surgery which has a big impact on me when I fly in Y.

For shorter flights it's not a problem (especially being UA silver which usually nets me free E+) but for longer flights (transcon and longer) the ever tightening pitch and shoulder room in Y just doesn't bode well for me (my knee gets stiff and swollen, my shoulder bumps into people, etc.). The others things are icing on the cake (free bag check if needed, lounge access on certain routes, food / drink, etc.)

Because of that I try my best to get up front through miles, cash, instruments, etc., and I find these days that through FCM you can usually find F fares for not much more than the Y fares is either at the time of booking or taking a TOD/FCM at check-in.

Obviously for international it's a little different but even there I've found opportunities to either get P fares, use miles/cash, or straight miles to get the extra room (or worst case snag a high quality E+/MCE/C+ seat).