Will the real expats please stand up?
Aug 6, 2013, 6:25 am
#61
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 33
I left the US 20 years ago to live in SW France. Although it hasn't always been a joyride, I can't imagine going back to the US anymore.
While France (and Europe) is probably expensive, that applies more closely to touristy things. When you live in a place long enough, you're in a different mode, you figure out how things work, you observe how people who earn less money than Americans manage to have satisfying lifestyles (arguably more satisfying than in the US) and you figure out how to adapt (or not). Clothing and gasoline are more expensive here. But I think of a young Frenchman I know who was visiting Boston USA, and got a toothache. His trip to the dentist and subsequent root canal cost him 1200U$. Here in France it would cost 60$ (which would be reimbursed by the system). You can buy a lot of clothes and gasoline with the difference.
Safety: violent crime is way lower than in the US and I just don't worry about it. Random people don't pack guns here and people who have drunk too much don't get violent (see next paragraph).
Fun: France excels at the art de vivre. If you like food, culture, concerts on the streets, picnics on mountain paths, etc. it is fun. Essential to speak french or you'll wind up hanging out with other monolingual expats complaining how the French are @# and (&* and of course, !!@.
While France (and Europe) is probably expensive, that applies more closely to touristy things. When you live in a place long enough, you're in a different mode, you figure out how things work, you observe how people who earn less money than Americans manage to have satisfying lifestyles (arguably more satisfying than in the US) and you figure out how to adapt (or not). Clothing and gasoline are more expensive here. But I think of a young Frenchman I know who was visiting Boston USA, and got a toothache. His trip to the dentist and subsequent root canal cost him 1200U$. Here in France it would cost 60$ (which would be reimbursed by the system). You can buy a lot of clothes and gasoline with the difference.
Safety: violent crime is way lower than in the US and I just don't worry about it. Random people don't pack guns here and people who have drunk too much don't get violent (see next paragraph).
Fun: France excels at the art de vivre. If you like food, culture, concerts on the streets, picnics on mountain paths, etc. it is fun. Essential to speak french or you'll wind up hanging out with other monolingual expats complaining how the French are @# and (&* and of course, !!@.
Aug 6, 2013, 7:15 am
#62
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Scotland - ABZ
Programs: Qantas LTG, BA-Blue, KLM -Gold, SAS - Silver
Posts: 2,057
the semantics/perspective thing makes me laugh. I remember landing in Frankfurt years ago and came off a huge US Airways flight with hundreds of americans. The customs booth
Aug 6, 2013, 9:50 am
#63
Formerly known as caveruner17
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ORD
Posts: 432
I would leave for Europe in a heartbeat if I was able to get a job. Top Countries (in order): Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, France, UK, Belgium... everywhere else.
Or Bolder or Portland. Either of those two I would jump at as well!
Or Bolder or Portland. Either of those two I would jump at as well!
Last edited by caverunner17; Aug 6, 2013 at 9:57 am
Aug 6, 2013, 11:25 am
#64
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NY Metro
Programs: UA Silver, BA Silver, Hyatt Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 408
I've been an expat once, moved from the US to Dubai. Lived there for over two years and me and mrs. dearbee got to experience the pre 2008 boom and post 2008 bubble burst. It is a really great topic of conversation and I've used it countless times. A great experience to have lived in a foreign land where you actually don't need to learn a foreign language. Housing can be very affordable, but also very costly. Most expats have that built into their package and title and position dictate what kind of lifestyle you live.
We felt the city was very safe. It is common knowledge or accepted as fact that Dubai is the bank for many terrorists, and for that reason it will never be targeted. Who knows how much of this is true.
While we were there we did not have children, so if you ask me now to relocate there with our little ones, we would think about it. Good international schools are in very high demand, and some kids do not get into their first or second school of choice.
We felt the city was very safe. It is common knowledge or accepted as fact that Dubai is the bank for many terrorists, and for that reason it will never be targeted. Who knows how much of this is true.
While we were there we did not have children, so if you ask me now to relocate there with our little ones, we would think about it. Good international schools are in very high demand, and some kids do not get into their first or second school of choice.
Aug 6, 2013, 2:41 pm
#65
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Singapore
Programs: SQ KF (ex-UA)
Posts: 588
docmoney --
Reconsider Singapore -- it definitely needs a different perspective in this thread than invisible gave. Affordability depends on what you require and what you are looking for in the experience.
Housing: this is the tough one -- I left in 2009 and I'm sure it's gotten worse, but there are options which are perfectly comfortable. If you "need" to live in one of the expat enclaves and/or in a luxury condo, prices are super high since companies are paying. I lived centrally but in a small apartment building instead of a giant one, no doorman, only a small pool, but very nice. I know Americans who lived in HDBs. Since you are single, consider sharing with another expat. This site has an exploration of the options, with price ranges -- http://www.guidemesingapore.com/relo...cost-of-living
Food: Hawker centers are fabulous and as cheap as US fast food (but much better!), there are plenty of moderate restaurants for both western and asian food of all stripes, and buying food at local supermarkets and wet markets is cheaper than a normal US grocery store. If you try to eat mostly at upscale western restaurants or bought at a western-focused grocery, it will cost a lot. My husband and I absolutely spent less on food in Singapore than we do in California. Note that the food for which Singapore gets raves is not western, but local. Western coffee chains are pricy; local coffee (kopi) is cheap.
Similar thought process for drugstore items, clothes, etc. -- American brands are expensive, local brands or UK/Australian ones less so.
Public transportation is great and cheap -- even taxis are less than most other big cities. I took buses and the MRT (metro/subway) most places, and taxis several times a week.
As to the "lose your job, leave the country in 1 week and lose your security deposit" -- maybe there is some risk, but in general you and your employer determine a time frame for leaving that works for both of you, and you exit in an orderly manner. If you do have a time issue, you take a quick trip to Malaysia, come back in with a tourist stamp, wrap up your rental business, and get your deposit back.
Get a maid to come in once or twice a week, for much less than in the US.
I found Singapore very fun, and they do a *lot* of things right. It's easy and efficient, yet still exotic. Although Chinese heritage is the dominant culture (with of course a British overlay), they do a good job of celebrating Indian and Malay cultures as well. The mix is great.
I'd be happy to answer any additional questions!
Reconsider Singapore -- it definitely needs a different perspective in this thread than invisible gave. Affordability depends on what you require and what you are looking for in the experience.
Housing: this is the tough one -- I left in 2009 and I'm sure it's gotten worse, but there are options which are perfectly comfortable. If you "need" to live in one of the expat enclaves and/or in a luxury condo, prices are super high since companies are paying. I lived centrally but in a small apartment building instead of a giant one, no doorman, only a small pool, but very nice. I know Americans who lived in HDBs. Since you are single, consider sharing with another expat. This site has an exploration of the options, with price ranges -- http://www.guidemesingapore.com/relo...cost-of-living
Food: Hawker centers are fabulous and as cheap as US fast food (but much better!), there are plenty of moderate restaurants for both western and asian food of all stripes, and buying food at local supermarkets and wet markets is cheaper than a normal US grocery store. If you try to eat mostly at upscale western restaurants or bought at a western-focused grocery, it will cost a lot. My husband and I absolutely spent less on food in Singapore than we do in California. Note that the food for which Singapore gets raves is not western, but local. Western coffee chains are pricy; local coffee (kopi) is cheap.
Similar thought process for drugstore items, clothes, etc. -- American brands are expensive, local brands or UK/Australian ones less so.
Public transportation is great and cheap -- even taxis are less than most other big cities. I took buses and the MRT (metro/subway) most places, and taxis several times a week.
As to the "lose your job, leave the country in 1 week and lose your security deposit" -- maybe there is some risk, but in general you and your employer determine a time frame for leaving that works for both of you, and you exit in an orderly manner. If you do have a time issue, you take a quick trip to Malaysia, come back in with a tourist stamp, wrap up your rental business, and get your deposit back.
Get a maid to come in once or twice a week, for much less than in the US.
I found Singapore very fun, and they do a *lot* of things right. It's easy and efficient, yet still exotic. Although Chinese heritage is the dominant culture (with of course a British overlay), they do a good job of celebrating Indian and Malay cultures as well. The mix is great.
I'd be happy to answer any additional questions!
As a doctor, you would be able to earn a decent salary by local standards - though not as much as in the US. Figure mid to high 5 figures USD.
If you are willing to rent an HDB or a lower end condo, prices are about the same as in any major US coastal city. The high end of the market is overpriced because most people are on expat packages or are so wealthy they just don't care.
The local food is great, cheap, but often unhealthy - easy enough to balance out with some healthier home-cooked meals though.
In terms of other expenses, covered well in the above post.
Aug 6, 2013, 3:14 pm
#66
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Northern Nevada
Programs: DL,EK
Posts: 1,652
In 2002, we moved from the US to Tbilisi, Republic of Georgia and later to Prague and Dubai. Tbilisi was a hard place to live, Dubai is easy and Prague is a bit in-between. We did this on our own with no "company" hiring us or dealing with paperwork. These days we still own our home in Prague and split time between the US Prague and a bit in Dubai.
Aug 6, 2013, 7:26 pm
#67
Formerly known as caveruner17
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ORD
Posts: 432
In 2002, we moved from the US to Tbilisi, Republic of Georgia and later to Prague and Dubai. Tbilisi was a hard place to live, Dubai is easy and Prague is a bit in-between. We did this on our own with no "company" hiring us or dealing with paperwork. These days we still own our home in Prague and split time between the US Prague and a bit in Dubai.
Aug 6, 2013, 7:41 pm
#68
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: MKE
Posts: 56
I just finished two years in northern Sweden. Despite not being in a very big place, it's the biggest place for quite a distance and so it works out to be a pretty happening place. There is not a wide variety of dining options and nearly all of them are bland, as the Swedes are apparently allergic to any spice that isn't dill or cardamom. There is, however, a really good music scene, with a couple of nice venues and a few decent sized festivals that pull some premier acts. And if you like sports, there's a huge gym and lots of hiking, biking, running and cross-country skiing opportunities.
It's pretty expensive, mostly because of the 25% VAT (the living in Sweden tax, as I call it). Food prices are slightly inflated relative to an already inflated Stockholm baseline. Housing is dealt with through a queue system, and shortages plus the ease of gaming that system for native Swedes, can make it hard to get a place, but as you might expect more expensive places are easier to come by.
Safe? By far safer than anywhere I've lived in the US (which includes a few mid-sized and a couple of the largest cities). Living in Stockholm instead wouldn't change that assessment one bit. It's just a fact that there aren't as many social problems in Sweden, due to the use of that tax money for social services and the high wage structure.
The biggest issue truly was the weather. Well, not even the weather so much as the light situation. Shortest day of the year is three and a half hours and in the summer it doesn't get dark for about five-six weeks. November is the worst because it's getting dark but hasn't snowed yet; you'd be surprised how just a bit of snow makes the little bits of daylight that much nicer. The bonus is that it's possible to catch the Northern Lights for quite a wide part of the year.
If you can deal with bureaucracy, queues, bland food, frequent coffee breaks (fika) and extremes of daylight/night, Sweden might just be for you.
It's pretty expensive, mostly because of the 25% VAT (the living in Sweden tax, as I call it). Food prices are slightly inflated relative to an already inflated Stockholm baseline. Housing is dealt with through a queue system, and shortages plus the ease of gaming that system for native Swedes, can make it hard to get a place, but as you might expect more expensive places are easier to come by.
Safe? By far safer than anywhere I've lived in the US (which includes a few mid-sized and a couple of the largest cities). Living in Stockholm instead wouldn't change that assessment one bit. It's just a fact that there aren't as many social problems in Sweden, due to the use of that tax money for social services and the high wage structure.
The biggest issue truly was the weather. Well, not even the weather so much as the light situation. Shortest day of the year is three and a half hours and in the summer it doesn't get dark for about five-six weeks. November is the worst because it's getting dark but hasn't snowed yet; you'd be surprised how just a bit of snow makes the little bits of daylight that much nicer. The bonus is that it's possible to catch the Northern Lights for quite a wide part of the year.
If you can deal with bureaucracy, queues, bland food, frequent coffee breaks (fika) and extremes of daylight/night, Sweden might just be for you.
Aug 6, 2013, 8:11 pm
#69
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: GDL
Programs: DL-Plat, Plat Ambassador, Hilton Gold, SPG Gold
Posts: 935
I lived in the Middle East many years ago. Recently spent a couple years in Nicaragua. Have traveled extensively in Central America and I am now in Mexico which is my favorite place of all.
My very limited time in SE Asia was nice but I don't think I would be happy there long term however many expats are very happy there so you really need to visit the places you are interested in to experience a place for yourself.
My very limited time in SE Asia was nice but I don't think I would be happy there long term however many expats are very happy there so you really need to visit the places you are interested in to experience a place for yourself.
Aug 6, 2013, 8:12 pm
#70
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: UA GS>1K>Nothing; DL DM 2MM; AS 75K>Nothing>MVP
Posts: 9,341
Lived for a long time overseas. Glad I did.
Pros -
Interesting.
Good food.
Can be a nice lifestyle.
Easy to make friends.
End up with friends all over the world.
Learn a lot about other places/people.
Learn a lot about your own country
Safe (depends on the place).
Schools.
Jet lag.
Weather (depending on where you left and where you go).
Cons -
Lose a lot of friends when they move/repatriate.
U.S. Tax returns
Caveats -
Helps to learn the language.
If you don't want to lose your roots, you need to visit your home country often.
Phones/internet have made a huge difference. When I first moved overseas, calls to the U.S. were $20/minute now they're free or a few pennies a minute.
Pros -
Interesting.
Good food.
Can be a nice lifestyle.
Easy to make friends.
End up with friends all over the world.
Learn a lot about other places/people.
Learn a lot about your own country
Safe (depends on the place).
Schools.
Jet lag.
Weather (depending on where you left and where you go).
Cons -
Lose a lot of friends when they move/repatriate.
U.S. Tax returns
Caveats -
Helps to learn the language.
If you don't want to lose your roots, you need to visit your home country often.
Phones/internet have made a huge difference. When I first moved overseas, calls to the U.S. were $20/minute now they're free or a few pennies a minute.
Aug 6, 2013, 9:19 pm
#71
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia City Highlands
Programs: Nothing anymore after 20 years
Posts: 6,900
In 2002? Man, you did have a courage. What forced you to do that?
Georgia in 2002 was a territory, not a country. Take this as statement from a person who was born and spent first 22 years of my life there....
Georgia in 2002 was a territory, not a country. Take this as statement from a person who was born and spent first 22 years of my life there....
Aug 7, 2013, 1:37 am
#73
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: FRA, STR, YYZ, YYC
Programs: Lufthansa/Aeroplan/Air Berlin
Posts: 102
I think it speaks more of the FT demographic than anything else. Most immigrants I know in Canada, if they spend time online communicating with others, its going to be in their native language, just like we do in ours. (I knew a lot of guys in grad school that would be on message boards in chinese, farsi, urdu, etc)
Aug 7, 2013, 3:56 am
#74
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,765
Ditto. And besides beer and food, what else could I need?