Duke787

My biggest frustration is being required to book refundable Y for international which often prices in line with advance-purchase discount J (especially at a tech company of our size that can surely negotiate sizeable discounts in all classes if desired, not just Y).

As long as I'm committed to the trip with no chance of a change, I should be able to book the non-refundable J if it prices the same as refundable Y.

Tchiowa

Problem is that corporations usually have the mindset that if they make an exception for you, even if that exception makes financial sense, then they're going to get bombarded with requests for other exceptions. Draw one line and leave it that way.

CyBeR

Is it really a problem to apply the same logic to everyone? So long as you have a clear policy of when to do what, I don't see the problem.

Often1

That would be one way to assure that the top people work on the more generous client's matters, especially if we're talking about significant ultra long-hauls.

montrealer

I early-retired from a major consulting firm 2 years ago. Policy was business > 4 hours (except for training..most trainings were offered in multiple locations and it was your choice to go to a more "exotic" one). Long-haul F never unless no other option to get there or travelling with client executive who was flying F themselves.

Now I run my own one-person shop. Have defaulted to the same rule, generally with no fuss. Have made exceptions to fly Y (and upgrade with certs) transcon for a client who I knew had recently instituted Y-only-in-North-America as a cost cutting measure, and I didn't feel it would be right to present them with J on an invoice. However, just turned down a project last week where client wasn't willing to pay for J for monthly 2-day N.America/Europe visits for 6 months -- hence my curiosity about this thread.

My take is that I travelled quite happily anywhere in Y a couple of times a year in my 20s, and (unlike some others in this thread) I know I can be reasonably productive on the day after a red-eye in Y -- once in a while. However, I'm in my 12th year averaging 200k+ miles, on occasion 6+ intercontinental redeyes a month. I'm pretty sure if I did all or even a significant part of that in Y, I'd be a wreck by now. So, barring rare exceptions, long haul is J or I don't go.

I have faced some challenges (always reached amicable resolution) with clients surprised I couldn't book cheap nonrefundable fares: yes, I know we have a standing meeting on the first Tues of each month, but I don't have visibility where I'm going before or after...

deniah

cant you just buy cash upgrades at the airport for marginal prices?

Often1

That was a great solution during the recession. And in some instances it still is. But, on many routes with the economy on screech and carriers have trimmed service to meet paid demand, those juicy upgrades are long gone.

And when they exist, they are not the good deals they used to be. Not that there aren't occasional good deals to be had. Simply that if one is a regular on an ultra long-haul, chancing this isn't what most people want.

BearX220

I'm always impressed by people who say they refuse to fly Y under any circumstance, would quit their jobs if push came to shove, etc... really? If it's a good job, is that really the hill you'd want to die on?

I hear you, but might have negotiated PE -- or a lump sum I could spend as I pleased. Real world, many's the time client norms or one's own circumstances (e.g. need for a gig) soften these never-Y rules.

If I'm consulting for a company where everyone from the CEO down flies in coach, I'm going to look like a fool insisting on business class (and it won't help other aspects of the business relationship either).

gglave

...and would they easily find another company that doesn't have the same policy?

Were I to quit my company due to its all-Y travel policy, I'd likely find that anywhere else I might land would have the exact same policy.

findark

The number one thing that always gets me about Y-only travel policies are that they are usually ridiculously out of line (in travel quality) with the rest of the accommodations. IMO, flying even transcon Y is akin to getting to the airport by bus/train and staying in a Motel 6, and yet most employers I know have no problem paying for $150 car service and only allow you to book the likes of a Westin. The lack of flexibility and (in a large company) the unwillingness to listen to reason create an adversarial relationship between employees and the policy, and usually the amount of money that can be wasted "in policy" is rather higher than a cheap J fare.

DEN ConsultMonkey

Mgmt Consulting top firm 7hrs or less in the air = Y

gglave

It simply comes down to the dollars.

The cost difference between a three-night stay at the Westin vs. Motel Six might be $400.

With something like SEA-LHR return you might be talking a $3500 difference between Y and J. If the Westin was $3500 more than the Motel 6 then you can bet Tom Bodett would be 'leaving the light' on for me at the Motel 6 as well.

[FWIW, I don't get to pay for car service. Cabs or Uber for me.]

findark

Sure, but sometimes that isn't the case (creative routings and/or many long US domestic flights can be quite cheap up front) and the inflexibility of most corporate policies does not account for this. It's my impression that they're built more around the idea of what some director though were "sufficient" comforts for his employees (and at many big companies not himself).

But you're right that giving people free rein to book last-minute overwater J travel is outrageously expensive. In general I am a proponent of policies which try to target reasonable costs rather than limit by "level of luxury". But then I have stronger opinions than most about spending more than about 3 hours in Y.

gglave

I guess living as I do in Canada, I don't have enough experience to comment intelligently, but I can say that when this response has come up over the years I've noodled around with curiousity on search engines and have never been able to come up with a J routing that wasn't thousands more than Y.

Take my example above. SEA-LHR, departing Monday October 31st, returning Friday, November 4th.

Return Y fare seems to be around $1500 USD. Are you suggesting you can find a return J fare via "creative routings" that isn't $1000-$2000 more?

...because I've never been able to - And it's that thousands more for J that employers balk at.

I'm sure if the price was comparable, most employers would be fine.

findark

So it's definitely not true every time. But to take your example, most corporate travel policies would let me book any of several nonstop OW/ST options which are USD 2729. The policy allowing Business Class would get the company billed the same flights in J, which are over 9k. But FI via KEF is 4740, and 3878 if you let me spend part of my weekends in LHR. And that's for an example you threw at me, departing in less than 14 days, to one of the most expensive premium markets in the world. It's not lie-flat, but still in my opinion worth it especially for an eastbound TATL.

Now, I fully admit that "book J" is going to make people waste 9k on the nonstop. And not everyone can plan their work travel in advance. I'm fortunate with my current employer that they're still small enough that they're willing to work with me, and I can generally fly J/F for small sums out of my own pocket (which I get by planning my travel in advance and being willing to go with the lower fares). My last job would had never heard of it.


And honestly I'm arguing about US transcon as much as overwater flights. Last-minute int'l J is absurdly expensive, and I can sympathize with the bottom line on that.