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-   -   Sequester cuts: effects on travel. (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1440713-sequester-cuts-effects-travel.html)

scottdurand Apr 22, 2013 8:22 pm

Anyone that thinks the delays are 'no big deal' and 'people shouldn't get aggravated' needs to wait with their opinion until they themselves have sat in an airport 8 to 12 hours and until they have their own business disrupted and have business deals screwed up due to delays.

PainCorp Apr 23, 2013 12:09 am

I've got a question for you guys regarding the sequester.

This coming weekend I have 4 flights, LGB -> LAS (B9), LAS -> SNA (FL) and then LAX -> SFO (WN) and SFO -> LAX (VX). The time between SNA and LAX flights is several hours, and usually I would not be concerned getting there for a WN flight. Now because of the sequester I'm a bit nervous (but not losing sleep over it).

If, due to the sequester delays are to happen that force either my plane to be delayed into SNA, or security is ridiculous at LAX and I miss my flight out, what recourse do I have? Searched, but haven't seen much on this yet. I'm assuming this would be handled differently than if I just slept through my alarm, since it's (security, the sequester) is beyond my control.

jamar Apr 23, 2013 2:15 am

One thing I've been curious about- what happens on the border? For example, if cuts happen at SEA, does that affect any traffic out of YVR?

nrr Apr 23, 2013 4:20 am

Even if they could reduce ATC delays to a bare minimum, due to sequester, why should they? It would only prove that they could get by with few Air Traffic Controllers. Ditto for TSA. No employer (particularly a gov't agency) would ever admit that they have more employees than they really need.:D

iahphx Apr 23, 2013 7:10 am

It's obviously not hard to find anecdotal stories of woe when it comes to air travel. I mean, everyday there are tens of thousands of flights, so somebody is going to suffer a ridiculous delay. What I'm interested in is the overall delay stats which, I guess, are most easily measured in the ontime performance of the major airlines. Is somebody keeping close daily track of that here? On-time stats for particular airports would also be helpful as we could see where the real staffing problems are (and know which airports are particularly risky to fly to right now).

From a traveler standpoint, what worries me most here is making a flight connection. Given a choice, I think I'd prefer nonstop flights for the next couple of weeks until they resolve this.

l etoile Apr 23, 2013 7:13 am


Originally Posted by jamar (Post 20637122)
One thing I've been curious about- what happens on the border? For example, if cuts happen at SEA, does that affect any traffic out of YVR?

Yes, if the flights out of YVR are going to US airspace. The furloughs create reductions in capacity throughout the system. If a flight from Canada is heading to the US, it will face the same delays as any other would. The US does put ground holds on flights from Canada to the US when necessary.

l etoile Apr 23, 2013 7:22 am


Originally Posted by iahphx (Post 20637965)
Is somebody keeping close daily track of that here? On-time stats for particular airports would also be helpful as we could see where the real staffing problems are (and know which airports are particularly risky to fly to right now).

It's changing on a daily basis. For example, I believe, Chicago Center had good staffing the first two days, but not today (I think it's Chicago Center). A high-altitude North Atlantic oceanic sector was closed one day so far, but open the next. Today some routes to the Caribbean will be closed though there was staffing to have them open previous days. Staffing is not constant at any given facility so the delays will not be that predictable. It's also not just an issue of airports, but center staffing that could lead to planes needing to be further in trail.

iahphx Apr 23, 2013 7:46 am


Originally Posted by l'etoile (Post 20638017)
It's changing on a daily basis. For example, I believe, Chicago Center had good staffing the first two days, but not today (I think it's Chicago Center). A high-altitude North Atlantic oceanic sector was closed one day so far, but open the next. Today some routes to the Caribbean will be closed though there was staffing to have them open previous days. Staffing is not constant at any given facility so the delays will not be that predictable. It's also not just an issue of airports, but center staffing that could lead to planes needing to be further in trail.

Well, that seems odd -- but of course this whole thing is odd. I mean, this isn't like a sick-out: while they're reducing staffing, they should be able to spread the people around in a consistent way.

My guess is that, somehow, this is all resolved in the next 2 weeks or so. Either the FAA will "figure out" how to adjust to the lower staffing, or the politicians will intervene. While only a small percentage of the American public flies regularly, it's the "opinion leaders" and decision makers who fly all the time. If delays mount, Congress and the White House will figure out some sort of stop-gap solution to this self-inflicted wound. In the meantime, I hope I make my connection on Friday. :)

l etoile Apr 23, 2013 8:24 am


Originally Posted by iahphx (Post 20638120)
Well, that seems odd -- but of course this whole thing is odd. I mean, this isn't like a sick-out: while they're reducing staffing, they should be able to spread the people around in a consistent way.

Controllers certify on certain positions so they are not interchangeable. Facilities have canceled classes, training, travel and all but primary vacation leave in order to have all available people working. But they've also had to cancel overtime so where you used to be able to backfill for vacation and sick leave, now you can't. A person or two on vacation, one out sick, one furloughed and now a system that used to be able to function finds itself unable to.

Meanwhile the whole system is interconnected. Where one facility may have good staffing, a facility they hand planes off to may be short and may require more spacing, creating a domino effect.

Global_Hi_Flyer Apr 23, 2013 8:27 am


Originally Posted by iahphx (Post 20638120)
Well, that seems odd -- but of course this whole thing is odd. I mean, this isn't like a sick-out: while they're reducing staffing, they should be able to spread the people around in a consistent way.

Not really. Each sector (or group of sectors) requires a certain amount of sector-specific training because of the specific procedures that might be used in those sectors. That's particularly true where there are LOAs between facilities that the controller must be familiar with. So they can't just pull a controller from, say, Washington Center to Potomac TRACON.

What they could do, though, is to make more cuts at lesser-used facilities (make more cuts at CVG than ATL, for example) to balance out the system.

My guess is that, somehow, this is all resolved in the next 2 weeks or so. Either the FAA will "figure out" how to adjust to the lower staffing, or the politicians will intervene. While only a small percentage of the American public flies regularly, it's the "opinion leaders" and decision makers who fly all the time. If delays mount, Congress and the White House will figure out some sort of stop-gap solution to this self-inflicted wound. In the meantime, I hope I make my connection on Friday. :)
I think it will all depend on whether the public blames the Administration or the opposite party. If the Administration gets blamed, I'd bet on them wanting to compromise on the issue (they've said they will only do a full, big, deal). OTOH, if the opposite party gets blamed, I'd bet on the Administration holding out for more. That's time-tested Washington politics.

GadgetFreak Apr 23, 2013 11:00 am


Originally Posted by PainCorp (Post 20636855)
I've got a question for you guys regarding the sequester.

This coming weekend I have 4 flights, LGB -> LAS (B9), LAS -> SNA (FL) and then LAX -> SFO (WN) and SFO -> LAX (VX). The time between SNA and LAX flights is several hours, and usually I would not be concerned getting there for a WN flight. Now because of the sequester I'm a bit nervous (but not losing sleep over it).

If, due to the sequester delays are to happen that force either my plane to be delayed into SNA, or security is ridiculous at LAX and I miss my flight out, what recourse do I have? Searched, but haven't seen much on this yet. I'm assuming this would be handled differently than if I just slept through my alarm, since it's (security, the sequester) is beyond my control.

Not sure. Generally, the response from most airlines is that you should have gotten there sooner.

GadgetFreak Apr 23, 2013 4:43 pm

STL - LGA tonight, 40 to 60 minutes late departing. Not sure about cause, it might be partially due to weather. Just announced flow delay into LGA. It will be more than an hour late possibly.

Ahuch Apr 23, 2013 6:34 pm


Originally Posted by GadgetFreak (Post 20641460)
STL - LGA tonight, 40 to 60 minutes late departing. Not sure about cause, it might be partially due to weather. Just announced flow delay into LGA. It will be more than an hour late possibly.

Well, on the United website I currently see:


NEW YORK (J.F. KENNEDY) 82 Minutes STAFFING
NEW YORK (LA GUARDIA) 115 Minutes STAFFING
NEW YORK (NEWARK LIBERTY) 115 Minutes STAFFING
WASHINGTON (NATIONAL) 73 Minutes STAFFING

l etoile Apr 23, 2013 6:46 pm

Crystal ball says LA Center is going to have problems tomorrow.

jazarneb Apr 23, 2013 6:54 pm

Todays editorial in WSJ titled "Flight delays as Political strategy" notes other areas to cut besides the air traffic controllers. (They need to reduce spending by 600 million)

500 million to consultants
325 million for supplies and travel

Or how about these items from the DOT:
474 million grant program to make communities more livable and sustainable
unknown amount for Women in Transportation History online exhibit.


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