Apr 23, 2013, 7:44 pm
Last edit by: jspira
Boeing's Dreamliner was grounded by regulators around the world on January 16, 2013 due to unknown problems relating to the aircraft's high-tech lithium-ion batteries.
Link to how lithium ion batteries work.
Link to further explanation of lithium ion and the 787 battery.
After several months, the FAA approved Boeing's plan for a series of fixes to the aircraft's battery and related systems.
Boeing engineers have started to implement the fixes and the FAA issued an airworthiness directive on April 25, 2013 allowing flights to begin.
As of mid May, all 8 Dreamliner operators have begun to announce dates for the relaunch.
Link to how lithium ion batteries work.
Link to further explanation of lithium ion and the 787 battery.
After several months, the FAA approved Boeing's plan for a series of fixes to the aircraft's battery and related systems.
Boeing engineers have started to implement the fixes and the FAA issued an airworthiness directive on April 25, 2013 allowing flights to begin.
As of mid May, all 8 Dreamliner operators have begun to announce dates for the relaunch.
General Dreamliner FAQ and Information Thread
Jan 19, 2013 | 9:17 am
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General Dreamliner FAQ and Information Thread
EDIT:
The Dreamliner was grounded (as everyone knows) on 16 Jan. On March 12, the FAA announced that it would allow Boeing to begin a certification plan that would lead to the aircraft's return for passenger service.
On March 16, Boeing provided much greater detail about the battery fix.
ORIGINAL TEXT:
Preface: As some of you here know, I was to fly on LOT's inaugural Chicago-Wawsaw flight this past Wednesday. It came down to the wire (the FAA directive didn't cover LOT's flight) but LOT opted to cancel.
Given that all of the Dreamliner coverage was focusing on the battery issue and not on the plane's innovations at that point, and since I've flown the Dreamliner multiple times before, I decided to put together a FAQ that looks at the plane's innovations as well as explains the current problems and added an extensive virtual tour (10 multimedia slide shows).
I thought it would be a good idea to discuss the 787's innovations here since they are getting buried by the battery news (which does warrant attention of course as well but that's not the point of this thread).
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) and Virtual Tour
Read the full story
The Dreamliner was grounded (as everyone knows) on 16 Jan. On March 12, the FAA announced that it would allow Boeing to begin a certification plan that would lead to the aircraft's return for passenger service.
On March 16, Boeing provided much greater detail about the battery fix.
ORIGINAL TEXT:
Preface: As some of you here know, I was to fly on LOT's inaugural Chicago-Wawsaw flight this past Wednesday. It came down to the wire (the FAA directive didn't cover LOT's flight) but LOT opted to cancel.
Given that all of the Dreamliner coverage was focusing on the battery issue and not on the plane's innovations at that point, and since I've flown the Dreamliner multiple times before, I decided to put together a FAQ that looks at the plane's innovations as well as explains the current problems and added an extensive virtual tour (10 multimedia slide shows).
I thought it would be a good idea to discuss the 787's innovations here since they are getting buried by the battery news (which does warrant attention of course as well but that's not the point of this thread).
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) and Virtual Tour
1.) What is different about the Dreamliner?
2.) Which airlines currently operate the Dreamliner and when did each first put the aircraft into service?
3.) Which airlines have the Dreamliner on order?
...
7.) What is the Dreamliner like inside?
8.) What is different in flight?
…..
2.) Which airlines currently operate the Dreamliner and when did each first put the aircraft into service?
3.) Which airlines have the Dreamliner on order?
...
7.) What is the Dreamliner like inside?
8.) What is different in flight?
…..
Last edited by jspira; Mar 16, 2013 at 8:37 am
Jan 19, 2013 | 4:27 pm
#2
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Nice compendium on the Dreamliner!
The battery explanaiton is pretty good as well.
It appears the extensive circuitry (iirc the battery has seven battery management circuits associated with it) may necessitate some redesign and more conservative regulation in the charging circuit - some of the most recent information implies an abnormally high charging rate after use is what has caused the batteries to overheat.
The BOS 787 had apparently generated heavy battery draw in starting the auxiliary power unit on the ground; the recharging seems to have been tat too high a rate for the battery to safely tolerate. When lithium battery electrolyte overheats, as I understand the process it expands it generates oxygen and gets very hot - which explains why the JL Boston 787 battery heated to the point of deformation and why the firefighters took 40 minutes to put the fire out. (As well, the battery compartments in the 787 are not provided with Halon fire extinguishing capability.)
There is also a possibility the lithium cobalt oxide electrodes contribute to the overhearing issues. That could necessitate battery redesign.
JL 787 APU battery
Link to how lithium ion batteries work.
Link to further explanation of lithium ion and the 787 battery
This paradoxically may be a relatively good thing, because it will require a relatively easy fix, rather than necessitating an adaptation of a different (non lithium ion) battery. (The ANA battery is reported to have "leaked", but that can well be related to electrolyte heating and expansion as well.)
The battery explanaiton is pretty good as well.
Originally Posted by Jonathan Spira
6.) What is different about the batteries in the Dreamliner?
The Boeing 787 Dreamliner has more electrical systems than earlier aircraft. These systems perform a variety of tasks including de-icing the wings, pressurizing the cabin, and operating hydraulic pumps. In addition, the 787 has electric brakes while other aircraft have hydraulic ones. The Dreamliner has six generators that generate a total of 1.45 megawatts, enough to power 400 homes.
The aircraft has two main lithium-ion batteries, each roughly twice the size of a standard car battery. One, located in the front of the aircraft, supplies power for the plane’s startup functions and ground operations and also serves as backup power for the electrical brakes. The second is in the back of the plane and is used to start the aircraft’s auxiliary power supply, which is a small engine that powers the plane while it is on the ground. Malfunctions have been reported with both batteries.
The Boeing 787 Dreamliner has more electrical systems than earlier aircraft. These systems perform a variety of tasks including de-icing the wings, pressurizing the cabin, and operating hydraulic pumps. In addition, the 787 has electric brakes while other aircraft have hydraulic ones. The Dreamliner has six generators that generate a total of 1.45 megawatts, enough to power 400 homes.
The aircraft has two main lithium-ion batteries, each roughly twice the size of a standard car battery. One, located in the front of the aircraft, supplies power for the plane’s startup functions and ground operations and also serves as backup power for the electrical brakes. The second is in the back of the plane and is used to start the aircraft’s auxiliary power supply, which is a small engine that powers the plane while it is on the ground. Malfunctions have been reported with both batteries.
The BOS 787 had apparently generated heavy battery draw in starting the auxiliary power unit on the ground; the recharging seems to have been tat too high a rate for the battery to safely tolerate. When lithium battery electrolyte overheats, as I understand the process it expands it generates oxygen and gets very hot - which explains why the JL Boston 787 battery heated to the point of deformation and why the firefighters took 40 minutes to put the fire out. (As well, the battery compartments in the 787 are not provided with Halon fire extinguishing capability.)
There is also a possibility the lithium cobalt oxide electrodes contribute to the overhearing issues. That could necessitate battery redesign.
JL 787 APU battery
Link to how lithium ion batteries work.
Link to further explanation of lithium ion and the 787 battery
This paradoxically may be a relatively good thing, because it will require a relatively easy fix, rather than necessitating an adaptation of a different (non lithium ion) battery. (The ANA battery is reported to have "leaked", but that can well be related to electrolyte heating and expansion as well.)
Jan 27, 2013 | 5:54 pm
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Sunday NTSB Update
Sunday NTSB Update, hot off the press...
NTSB: No Obvious Anomalies in Dreamliner Backup Battery
NTSB: No Obvious Anomalies in Dreamliner Backup Battery
The backup battery for the Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft whose primary battery caught fire while parked at Bostons Logan Airport had no obvious anomalies according to an update issued by the National Transportation Safety Board on Sunday. The findings followed the completion of a cursory comparative exam of the battery. The agency said a thorough tear down and test sequence of non-destructive examinations will take place in the coming weeks....
Jan 27, 2013 | 11:30 pm
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in your link:
"The liquid electrolytes used in all conventional Li batteries are inherently flammable, regardless of chemistry. "
i'm not too certain i buy that statement. are all Li batteries conventional? or is this person only going off message because Li is unstable? the current count of Li compound batteries out there number over 100,000,000.
iron(Fe) and aluminum(Al) in powdered form is unstable, as are coal, wood and flour. the lithium used in these batteries is tied up in a compound that i have read is not flammable
airbus has a bunch of small versions of this same battery chemistry from the same manufacturer in a number of in their planes.
"The liquid electrolytes used in all conventional Li batteries are inherently flammable, regardless of chemistry. "
i'm not too certain i buy that statement. are all Li batteries conventional? or is this person only going off message because Li is unstable? the current count of Li compound batteries out there number over 100,000,000.
iron(Fe) and aluminum(Al) in powdered form is unstable, as are coal, wood and flour. the lithium used in these batteries is tied up in a compound that i have read is not flammable
airbus has a bunch of small versions of this same battery chemistry from the same manufacturer in a number of in their planes.
Last edited by slawecki; Jan 27, 2013 at 11:39 pm
Jan 28, 2013 | 7:39 am
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More updates, this time from Japanese regulators
Japanese Regulators End Dreamliner Battery Maker Investigation with No Findings
Japanese Regulators End Dreamliner Battery Maker Investigation with No Findings
Japans air safety regulators have completed a review into quality control at GS Yuasa, the manufacturer of lithium-ion batteries for the Boeing 787 Dreamliner. The process, which was conducted in concert with U.S. authorities, concluded without any findings that point to corrective action that GS Yuasa or Boeing could take...
Mar 12, 2013 | 5:15 pm
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Today's update:
Boeing Gets FAA Approval for Certification Plan for Dreamliner Battery Solution
Boeing Gets FAA Approval for Certification Plan for Dreamliner Battery Solution
Boeing announced that it has received approval from the Federal Aviation Administration to implement its plan to test and certify improvements to the 787 Dreamliners lithium-ion battery system. Failures of the high-tech batteries resulted in smoke and fire in two separate instances.
The decision to allow the testing comes roughly two months after the entire fleet of Dreamliners was grounded. ...
The decision to allow the testing comes roughly two months after the entire fleet of Dreamliners was grounded. ...
Mar 16, 2013 | 8:32 am
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in your link:
"The liquid electrolytes used in all conventional Li batteries are inherently flammable, regardless of chemistry. "
i'm not too certain i buy that statement. are all Li batteries conventional? or is this person only going off message because Li is unstable? the current count of Li compound batteries out there number over 100,000,000.
iron(Fe) and aluminum(Al) in powdered form is unstable, as are coal, wood and flour. the lithium used in these batteries is tied up in a compound that i have read is not flammable
airbus has a bunch of small versions of this same battery chemistry from the same manufacturer in a number of in their planes.
"The liquid electrolytes used in all conventional Li batteries are inherently flammable, regardless of chemistry. "
i'm not too certain i buy that statement. are all Li batteries conventional? or is this person only going off message because Li is unstable? the current count of Li compound batteries out there number over 100,000,000.
iron(Fe) and aluminum(Al) in powdered form is unstable, as are coal, wood and flour. the lithium used in these batteries is tied up in a compound that i have read is not flammable
airbus has a bunch of small versions of this same battery chemistry from the same manufacturer in a number of in their planes.
Mar 16, 2013 | 8:33 am
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Boeing has provided additional details on the battery fix:
Boeing Releases More Details on Dreamliner Battery Fix
Boeing Releases More Details on Dreamliner Battery Fix
Boeing released additional details about its plans to revise the design of the trouble-prone lithium-ion batteries that caused two fires that resulted in the worldwide grounding of the Dreamliner fleet.
The changes and improvements will add several layers of safety and could be ready to be deployed to the fleet, pending FAA approval, in a matter of weeks.....
The changes and improvements will add several layers of safety and could be ready to be deployed to the fleet, pending FAA approval, in a matter of weeks.....
Mar 16, 2013 | 11:44 am
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Apr 5, 2013 | 7:35 pm
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More news, namely that the 787 has passed its FAA mandated tests and the decision as to whether it can resume commercial flying is now in the hands of regulators.
Boeing Completes Final Dreamliner Test Flight, Looks to Resume Service by June
Boeing Completes Final Dreamliner Test Flight, Looks to Resume Service by June
Boeing said that it had completed the required testing of the Dreamliners redesigned battery system Friday. The airframe maker said it will deliver the results of Fridays flight and other recent ground and laboratory testing to the FAA in the coming days.....
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Apr 10, 2013 | 9:20 pm
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It looks like the Dreamliner will soon be flying again as some airlines have announced that it is back on the schedule, in one case as soon as this month.
Airlines Prepare to Relaunch Their Dreamliners: ANA, Qatar, United Schedule First Flights
Airlines Prepare to Relaunch Their Dreamliners: ANA, Qatar, United Schedule First Flights
Apr 18, 2013 | 8:56 pm
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Sources are saying that the Dreamliner's grounding will be lifted tomorrow.
FAA Expected to Approve Dreamliner Battery Fix, Lift Grounding
FAA Expected to Approve Dreamliner Battery Fix, Lift Grounding
Apr 19, 2013 | 3:19 pm
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As expected...
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Cleared For Flight
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Cleared For Flight
The Federal Aviation Administration approved Boeings plan for a series of fixes to the advanced lithium-ion batteries on its 787 Dreamliner aircraft on Friday, a move that will allow the grounded planes to return to passenger service in the near future. Boeing will also be able to resume deliveries of new Dreamliners to its customers....
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Apr 23, 2013 | 7:52 pm
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Given all of the news around the Dreamliner, I put together a brief look back at the problems and events of the past 3+ months.
Boeings Dreamliner: What Went Wrong and the Road Back
Boeings Dreamliner: What Went Wrong and the Road Back