Justification of J ?
 

I am curious to hear how flying J is justified by other companies?

My company does have a policy that allows for flights over 7hrs to be booked in J. The catch for me is that I am with a newly established division that is barely profitable (They hired me to eliminate the "barely" :D) and I am my own P/L.

Almost all of my trips are international and I expect to fly over 300k this year.

If an economy ticket is $1500-$2000 and a J ticket is $6000-$8000 where do you find the $4000-$6000 value in the J ticket?

If from a personal financial standpoint, I have a hard time justifying the purchase, how can I expect my company to?

The question is, how effective will you be after a long flight in Y, compared to being more rested from traveling in J? If you'll be exhausted from Y, then that's the justification. But if you can rest/sleep just as well in Y, and save tens of thousands of dollars that way, then that's an easy way to boost the P/L.

A well rested employee is much more valuable the following day to make the company money, compared with an employee whom stayed up all night in Y.
Second Travel is inconvienent for the employee, the company wants to show the employee they care about them, good employees are your biggest asset and you dont want to lose them so a little comfort can go a long way

If I had a job that required me to travel internationally several times a month in economy, I'd probably start looking for a new job or have them get someone else to do the travel.

At one point, my work was contemplating stopping paying for J and instead scheduling to allow no work the day of arrival instead of going right to a meeting. Those in charge of finances argued that an extra hotel night would cost 200$ and the flight in J costs 3+k more. Of course this didn't ever happen, because no one would ever take a job where they are forced to fly for 15 hours in Y on a regular basis.

Why do basketball players make more than school teachers?
 

F/J can be justified two ways.

1. Employee is well-rested and productive from the moment s/he hits the ground until the minute of departure. This includes everything from check-in to security to arrivals formalities, lounge for a shower, and the like. This is not simply a calculation as to what an employee makes per hour, but of the productive use of their time. Somebody who is asleep in their hotel when they could be at work means there are that many business tasks accomplished in the time the employee is out of the office.

2. As to employee comvenience, it's a competetive market. All things being equal, a regular long-haul traveler who is also high-performing will opt for the job with the better perks. That leaves your company with the non-performers. Having said this, the operative words are "all things being equal." Would somebody leave over F/J travel if it meant a $50K pay cut? Not likely. But, just like all perks, premium travel factors into the employee's decision-making process.

There is no cookie cutter answer to this question. At a cash-strapped startup, premium travel may not be doable even if it seems like a great idea. Cash flush mature company with a competitor breathing down your neck and it's time to shell out.

To carry the sports analogy a bit further, the advantage may be considerable if the employee's job responsibilities include sales, negotiation, or public relations. In those situations, a tired employee may cost a company a sale, an important term in a contract that could be worth millions of dollars, or a bad impression that might damage a company's brand image. Like an athlete, many of these folks are expected to perform at their best at a specific time, perhaps within hours of clearing the airport. All of those considerations could make an economic case for business class over coach.

Having said that I'm sure in the last decade, this argument was applied to a much larger class of folks than originally intended and became more of a perk than a justified business expense.

I'll often fly from MIA-EZE on Sunday night, 8.5 hours of flying then after landing, check-in to my hotel to shower then head into a Monday morning meeting. If my company didn't fly me in F or J I wouldn't physically be able to handle it and wouldn't be remotely productive. I'd also leave them and go work for another company that would pay for the J travel. It does mean a lot to me that they do spend the extra money for my comfort and I'm therefore more loyal to my company and more willing to go the extra mile or go out of my way to benefit the company.

In addition to the other points, some airlines give 1.5, 2 etc. times the miles for J v Y. You could contribute those miles to future business travel, if you need to 'add value' - either in the form of a ticket, or an upgrade from Y.

The most common reason I see for justification of J is [discounted J] is less than [full priced Y]. I don't think J really ever shows as cheaper than discounted Y, but it quite often shows less than full fare Y. I play along with a few folks who use such a justifcation and whilst I don't entirely agree with them, that is the fault of poorly worded travel policies IMO! The 'perks' J would give, that you can demonstrate a cash value for, include things like lounges (cost of meal, able to work online with free wifi, telephone calls etc), free luggage allowance for checked bags, and the 'soft perks', things like priority security access (saving time, meaning you can spend more time at the office / with clients), cost of hotel room overnight (ie you sleep on the plane), able to work in private on the plane (sensitive documents etc), arrive rested and able to work immediately, showers on arrival so you don't have to pay for day use of a hotel room when you arrive etc.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. The company policy is 7+ hours and I would leave it as that. I don't see any reason you should be held to a different standard than everyone else.

While I don't fly internationally nearly as often as I used to (1x or 2x a month from EWR-MAN for 2+ years), I don't think J or F is really justifiable, unless a solid corporate contract with deep discounts is in place. While F or J is obviously a much better experience, I don't find myself appreciably more rested than after a flight in Y. YMMV, of course.

Would I like to fly J or F on long flights? Of course, and I upgrade whenever possible using miles, but seeing the hit on my P&L every quarter for Y travel (All of my employees travel almost weekly), I wouldn't even want to venture a guess as to how ugly it would be with J and F fares.

This is not true at all. There are many employees in many industries who fly only Y, and are happy to do it.

I am not saying that I would be one of them; perhaps I am too coddled. I am sympathetic to the OP's point -- if it were your own money, or you were the owner of the company, could you justify it?

Sometimes you could. And it is not just about being productive the day after the flight. If one is a highly paid professional, then one's comfort is of value; anyone who flies internationally for a couple of days is probably doing something of high value to the company, so a few thousand extra dollars might be small relative to the value of the work being done.

This is my experience as well. Flying 15 hours is tough no matter how wide the seat is. Since neither J nor Y will let you lie down and sleep as if you were in bed, and since International coach is "usually" better than your typical MD80 coach, I would at least give Y a try for a few times, especially if I'm being judged on profitability.

Also I would try for as few trips as possible (sacrilege on FT, I know). But I think it's ridiculous to fly 15 hours each way to be at a client site for only 2 or 3 days. That kind of travel burden tells me you should be on site for at least a solid week, preferably 2 weeks.

That depends on the airline. Air Canada, for example, has fully flat beds in J, which allow me to be far more comfortable than bolt upright in Y.

I would submit your budget with J travel budgeted..

BAM.. 50K savings on the bottom line right there. take that and cash in your bonus. :)

A lot of companies allow only Economy travel for everyone that's below a VP level. It's not uncommon.

Isn't there also the consideration about working in-flight? In J, you have power outlets and space to spread out, use your laptop, etc (usually). Not really possible in Y, unless you're a contortionist and your seatmate doesn't complain. And god forbid the person in front of you reclines the seat...there goes the laptop ability.

Agreed. I think it it is very out of touch to believe that nobody would take a job where they are regularly asked to make 15-hour trips in Y. Personally, I would love a job that offered me the ability to travel that much, earn untold hundreds of thousands of FF miles, do something at least marginally interesting from a work perspective, and still be paid well to do so.

Also, from a business perspective, if I were my own p/l center like the OP and was being *paid* to save the company $$$, unless I had some sort of physical disability or ailment that precluded me from taking long trips in coach, I would at least try to save the company money by flying Y as often as possible.

I've flown on average 250K miles per year for 15 years. If I had done that in Y I would have significant health issues. That's all the justification I need. I do fly in Y on PtP flights of 2 hours or less. Even then, if I have a big guy next to me it takes me about a half day to fully recover. On a 10 hour+ flight it would take a week to recover. That's just my personal physical issue and we are all different.

One other point is that with my millions of miles flown, I have of course been through many airline mechanical and weather issues. As a biz or First passenger, and top elite, I am always taken care of before the back of the plane. Many times I arrive at my destination hours or even a day before the Y passengers make it. The best example of this was on a UA LHR-LAX flight. We were stuck at the gate at LHR for about 2 hours when a UA agent came up to each of us in First class and whispered that they had a seat for us on the NZ flight going to LAX. They said that they were whispering because as soon as we got off, they were going to announce to the rest of the plane that the flight was cancelled and they would be re-booked on a flight the next day. I made my meetings on time, the people in the back did not.

There's no correct answer to the question. There are simply factors to consider and balance. Every business is different and every business faces different competetive pressures.

In my opinion J is almost never justified; the need to arrive well-rested can be satisfied by flying out one day earlier and resting. Very, very few people make so much that the cost of an extra day's salary, hotel, and per diem exceed the price difference between international Y and J.

300K international miles in Y would surely be intolerable to all but the superhuman. You can debate Y vs. J and there are some arguments on each side, but at 300K per year we're talking nearly a month a year actually in the air and another two weeks or so around airports.

I'd either go J or attempt to cut down on the travel by at least 2/3rds with use of videoconferencing and the like.

Again, from a business perspective, a really good point. There are times when you need to be at your destination at or close to your appointed time, and the airlines are going to work harder to get their high-dollar elite members there than their Y passengers.

From my personal perspective, I definitely consider the length of the flight. Anything under about four hours, I can generally handle in Y although Stimpy's point about a row made crowded by a large passenger can make me wish I'd moved up front. Anything over four hours and anything on a red eye is a totally different story. A flight from SFO-JFK on AA a little over a year ago sealed the deal for me on this aspect.

Let me suggest one more thing. Your company has a policy already. Saving money by spending less than this policy allows may have good or bad effects, depending on the size of your company and its corporate culture. I think the good effects are obvious and are more likely to be realized the smaller and leaner your company is.

As the company you work for gets bigger, generally, there is a culture of corporate perks expected at each level. And somebody who comes in and is seen to undercut that culture may be viewed as endangering the perks expected at and above that level. Keep in mind that at some of the bigger companies, the reason that you get to fly in J is that someone a level or two or three above you expects to fly in F and someone a level or two above them expects to have access to a private jet.

As Mel Brooks famously said in Blazing Saddles, "We've gotta protect our phony, baloney jobs, gentlemen." Just substitute in "perks," and I think you'll find that's the attitude at a lot of places.

This reflects my companies policy and suits our business needs, much as I dislike it. However, some companies can easily justify the cost if, for example, a customer requires support on site and penalty clauses start to kick in until plant or equipment is functioning again.

Good point, I hadn't thought about cases where the travel is truly booked at the last minute. My company could also suffer severe penalties if I don't arrive at the destination on time, but since my trips are planned far in advance this just means I have to leave (at least) a day earlier than necessary, flying in deep-discount Y.

I work for a company that does $3B in revenue however, the division I work for is essentially a start up. It is our parent company that has the 7+ in J policy and yes, there are jets at corporate. I report to our GM who reports to the President / CEO of our parent company. I am the only one in my division that travels overseas.

My compensation / bonus will be based on profitablity of the company as a whole. I'm sure in a year or two, there won't be a problem booking J, but at this point I feel that every dollar counts.

Depending on the flight, I don't really feel more rested in J, just a little more comfortable. A little ambien helps as well... I'm just thankful for status...

When I was working in HK profit wasn't an issue, but they still kept bringing up the cost of J (maybe CX had something to do with it....). I think that everyone's just looking at finances and making sure they are sustainable. A pretty easy thing to cut is J travel.

Anyways, I did not enjoy all of those flights all over the place, and I'm young. Business travel at first was great, but then it really started making life a lot tougher for me, especially being based in a foreign country.

Now I've got a much better situation and don't feel that I'm being used as much.

I made that argument when I was in finance, but it wasn't accepted. The next proposal of having employees split the savings between Y & J wasn't accepted as well.

The rule now is that you sit in coach for flights less than 8 hours, but get to fly J for flights longer than 8 hours.

My company's policy is J is permitted for 4 hours or more, for managers and above. For anyone lower than manager level, J is allowed for 4 hours or more with approval (i.e. likely yes for a TPAC flight, maybe for a TATL, unlikely for a 5 hour trans-con).

Also anyone who has to fly at least 20 round-trips per year is allowed J for flights of 2 hours or more.

The justification is similar to what others have mentioned...better rested and more comfortable employees are more productive and can hit the ground running. I can barely sleep in Y, but can easily in a lie-flat seat in J (Air Canada international J is lie flat seats)

Take the money or take the seat?
 

For all those who say that they cannot function the next day unless they're in J or that they would quit unless they're in J, what would you do if the company offered you the cash of J instead of the seat? That is, if a J ticket is $6000 and the Y ticket is $1500, and the company offered you $6000 to spend how you want (spend all $6k on the seat or pocket $4500 cash for yourself), I bet you'd see a lot more people in the back of the bus.

And I bet they'd show up for their meeting the next day...

I am well-rested and ready to hit the ground running after a 12-hour flight in Y. I'd expect anyone working for me to do the same. If anyone told me that they couldn't work productively after flying in Y, it'd be quite easy to replace them with one of the thousands of people who could.

That depends on the kind of work these people have to do.

And to be honest: The 12 hour flight normally is not the complete time of travel. My last TATL was a ~10 hour flight, but with connection, layover and transfer I reached more than 17 hours.
Do you really expect the people to be 100% fit for work after such a journey?

I must be a very weak person...

S.

I think there is no real justification, it's just a perk. The "I'm so important I need to be rested" theory is a joke but makes people feel important. In over 200 intercontinental business class flights I've yet to sit next to someone who was so critical to their company's operations that a hint of tiredness could wreck the bottom line. Of course I'm not complaining as I'm lucky enough to get to fly J class on my company's dime. I don't delude myself, however, that it's due to my importance, it's just a good company to work for and a good perk!

I would take the $$$, but there are many things where corporations pay huge expenses for some reason but not so justifiable at a personal viewpoint.

Exactly. I think most people making less than $500k/yr would take the money. Heck, the NBA refs got in trouble for pocketing the difference between F and Y.

I think a big part of it is keeping important employees happy- I would be royally annoyed if I was told I'd be flying in Y several times a month accross the Atlantic or Pacific!

I know a company that used to have a 5 hour rule- Book coach unless total airtime was 5 hours or more, in which case they got J. They eventually realized how expensive this was (even the Y tickets were fully flexible), and made everyone fly within NA on cheap fares.

It should also be said that these last few years have been the best time to purchase business class with all the sales and Z fares. It's really not that much more than a normal Y ticket. I recently paid €1900 and €2000 for long haul business class tickets. I would have paid just over a thousand for coach. So nearly double the price, but not 3000 more.

And then there are RTW tickets. These are often quite difficult to get in coach, but usually easy in business class. And thus RTW-C's can be actually cheaper than buying a bunch of individual coach tickets.

And this will never get factored in, especially as a matter of business policy, but the Y experience is dramatically different (which is to say, more bearable) if you are 5'-4" instead of 6'-4"...

A business policy can come to be if the leader of the company is 5'4". All Cisco employees must travel in coach, even up to the VP level. Why? Because the 2nd CEO and former Chairman of the company, John Morgridge is a tiny fellow who always traveled in coach. Cisco has something like $50 billion in cash reserves, so they aren't exactly hurting financially.

Yet most of the Cisco VP level employees are quite wealthy in their own right, and often buy up to business class out of their own pockets. Or use SWU's of course.

Or higher
 

I know many people who make even more than $500,000/year who would take the money, also! :eek:

Better performance for one thing, and attractive perks to recruit and retain the best people they can. If they are sending me around the world to make them richer, they need to treat me well. Think of it as an investment.

Remember that price to you is a greater percentage of your worth than it is the company's.

Just because I never had an accident in 20 years of going 150mph on the Autobahn on a daily basis, I wouldn't recommend that everybody do it.

On a more serious note, it's great that you are wired to function the way you are.

As others have pointed out, it's a matter of many factors. I'm 6'4" and while I'll happily do the occasional longhaul trip in Y/Y+, I would definitely balk at being expected to do so every other week. If you want my knowledge on the ground in some remote location, you are inconveniencing me in my personal life because I will be gone from home for a number of days, with a day of travelling on each end. I'll be spending countless hours of personal time either commuting or working - for no extra compensation. The least you can do is show me your appreciation by getting me there and back comfortably.

Alternatively, I'll be happy to go in coach if I stay on the clock for every minute of personal time I'm not spending doing personal stuff. And trust me - in that case, the additional cost of a ticket in J will pay for itself pretty quickly.

In my opinion, it's a matter of give and take. You show me some leeway and I'll do the same - happily.