GUWonder

Well, your business if you like somewhat less comfortable, more cranky children on flights where you don't have eviction rights.

I would rather someone else's children be sleeping on my flights -- makes for quieter cabins -- than be awake and cranky.

HelloKittysMum

One of the difficulties is that not everyone on the flight is on the same body clock. I fly to from SE Asia on Emirates and on the DXB MAN flight which leaves in the morning I have already been travelling for 15 plus hours (sometimes after doing a full day's work if I take 2am flight from KUL) send so even though it is daytime I have to get some rest.

slawecki

i really have no sympathy for all the darkers. i want to and do read pretty the entire time the plane is in the air(up to 12 hrs) the reading light system on many of the planes is really lousy. kindel availability is minimal. (they work best in lo light) i need the natural light. i checked my ticket, and i see nothing requiring me to keep my shade down. also, it appears to me that most who want the shade down want to play with some kind of an electronic toy, and have screen glare problem. the plane is not democracy at work. you want dark buy, the cabin.

by the way, most of my flights are tatl, in biz class, and on boeing planes(767&777)

gglave

Then get a good set of eye shades. It's what I do in a similar situation (a comfortable cloth pair).

Flying Redhead

That's pretty much how I am. I book the window seat because I want to be able to look out the window (and also so I can cuddle into it to sleep). I do try to only open the window about half way so that I can see out but it doesn't cause excessive glare for the person next to me. If it's insanely bright out then I tend to only open it a crack now and then and somewhat try to block the light by sitting in front of the window rather than resting back against the seat.

If you want to sleep, put on an eye mask. If you want to work on something electronic and the window is causing a glare, turn your laptop the few degrees it would take to eliminate most of the glare or simple ask me to lower the shade a bit. As long as someone is polite about asking I'm happy to close the shade most of the way or even all of the way depending on where we are and what time it is at the destination.

emma69

One of my favourite views is watching the dawn creep up as we fly over Ireland and then over the UK - I love the patchwork quilt of that land The only time I control the window is when I am in J, as I sit in the aisle in coach, and I've had several grumpy people moan at me! The fact they are already serving breakfast at that point, and cabin lights are up, tells me that it is time to wakey wakey eggs and bakey!

fti

I agree with Thunderroad.

Besides the views, which I like to look at, it is a known fact that natural light helps to conquer jetlag. I prefer a window seat for multiple reasons. I usually keep the window shade open at least a portion of the way on flights where I am trying to adjust to the local time at my destination.

pacer142

I sit at home and watch TV with the curtains open, so do most other people. I'm sitting at my PC now with the blinds open.

Why's a plane any different?

Neil

pacer142

While I've had a break for a month or so, I spent the last two years flying the same route (LTN-GVA and return) weekly. I never, ever seem to get bored of looking out, except when it's so cloudy you can't see anything at all.

Neil

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

It does depend on the aircraft and the entertainment being offered. If you are travelling in coach with a fixed screen on the seat in front, or if you are in business class where the screen is on the seat back in front, then it can make it very difficult to see anything if there is glare. Your tv at home, or computer - the light can be adjusted and if there is direct glare then you close a curtain or lower a blind. Most people I know don't have the tv positioned in such a way that there is direct light on the screen - in the same way the lights are off when you go to a movie theatre!

If the PVT on an aircraft is the swivel type in the armrest then there is not so much of a problem. But many airlines have a fixed screen.

flame7926

Just leave it down, and open it every so often. Won't bother people too much. Open it halfway also, try to shield the sun with your body.

GetSetJetSet

I generally comply with the FA request (although I will occasionally peek out), but really this seems to be the biggest issue on TPAC flights and who needs all the windows down? The eye mask does a fine job of blotting out all light for me.

basilfur1

Have just watched BBC FastTrack issue in which Simon Calder addressed viewer complaint regarding ‘shades down’ (in daylight) command (SwissAir). The viewer asked if airlines had “the legal authority to do this as it’s not safety related”.

Response from SwissAir was that “there’s no special policy around windows (shades) being closed on their flights” … and although CC may “ask kindly” (!!) where sunlight is causing discomfort to other passengers, CC’s “ask kindly” is not mandatory and passengers are “welcome” to use the window shades as they wish. This presumably excludes take off/landing where, I understand, ‘shades up’ is (at least on the airlines I’m familiar with), considered (legally mandated?) a safety/situational awareness issue.

That sorts out SwissAir policy, only a thousand or so airlines to go, and the legal situation remains unresolved. Browsing from the first (3 July 2011) to latest at time of writing (13 Dec 2012), posts on this contentious issue (but not all posts between) it appears that the discussion hasn’t advanced one iota and remains locked in personal opinion.

I note that explanations offered by presumably sincere CC parroting company doctrine, range from a rather bizarre “to prevent radiation poisoning” (presumably why Captains and Co-Pilots glow in the dark) … (joke), through the less than plausible “to prevent/reduce jet lag” (my body clock adjusts to sunlight and I resent being ‘sprung’ into bright midday sunlight just before we land), to the entirely plausible “to allow passengers to sleep”.

The ‘to allow passengers to sleep’ explanation is reasonable at a cursory glance, however as I’ve never encountered an airline with a cabin reading lights ‘lockout system’ or even a ‘no cabin reading lights on during shades down’ policy, the ‘to allow passengers to sleep’ explanation can safely be dismissed as airline hogwash, as anyone who has endured ‘all night reading lights’ either side of them during a night or shades down flight will undoubtedly attest.

If you like to sleep when flying, regardless of time of day/night, and want to guarantee darkness and perhaps a little enhanced quietness, go buy a decent eye mask and a set of foam ear plugs, try for a seat (assuming economy long haul here) right in the middle of the mid section, where no one has to climb over you endlessly, you’re as far as possible from the disturbance of toilets (and their queues) and galley commotion and as far from the potential for bright direct sunlight as possible. Hunker down and enjoy (!).

So, to perhaps advance this, to date rather circular, exchange of personal opinion, does anyone out there have any knowledge of the legal situation … FAA, IATA, ICAO (etc) regulations/policies? References for any legal material?

How does the legal requirement to “follow instructions/directions of cabin crew” fit into all this? I don’t have a problem with ‘reasonable’ CC instructions, but that’s also part of the problem, my perception of ‘reasonable’ is entirely subjective. Shades up for landing/takeoff, OK. Don’t be loud or otherwise offensive, OK. Don’t vomit to your left or right, no problem. Don’t marvel at the Himalayas as the sun rises on a clear morning, ah … now we do have a problem.

If CC command everyone to lower their shades in daylight but have no difficulty with 50% of the passengers immediately converting to blazing reading lights in order to continue in the artificial gloom, is that reasonable? If I refuse to lower my shade on the grounds that shades up en-route isn’t in any way safety related, would I then be in breach of the requirement to “follow CC directions/instructions”? If the CC appeared alongside me with a bucket of water and commanded me to hold my breath put my head in it for 30 seconds, could I refuse without falling foul of the ‘follow directions/instructions’ requirement?

Gets messy, doesn’t it. I’ve held a Commercial Pilots Licence most of my adult life (non airline related) and spent a significant period of my life as an Air Traffic Controller at various international and domestic airports … I’ve never managed to find any legal specifics regarding the shades up/down/up/down issue or the legal extent of ‘follow CC instructions/requirements’. Surely someone with an interest in aviation law follows or is aware of this forum and can come up with something a little more objective than the endless subjective opinion advanced so far.

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

hi basilfur1 and welcome to FT!

you are required by law to comply with lawful crew instructions (you are also required to comply with fixed and/or lighted signs and placards). generally speaking, lawful crew instructions are to do with safety. there is a plethora of law on this, a lot of it comes from international treaties which are ratified and then incorporated into national law.

being instructed to lower/raise your blinds is unlikely (except as you have pointed out for takeoff and landing etc) to be safety related. if you ignore that instruction there is no legal ramification.

however, these situations can quickly turn. if a passenger starts to become abusive, then they are caught by other laws which prevent threatening behaviour, or interfering with crew member duties. if the passenger remains cool, calm, polite and collected, then that's fine, but in some cases pax will take it too far.

I don't know why everyone focusses on sleep in the anti-shades-down camp?? we all know that passengers have eye masks if they need to sleep. that's not my issue. my issue is on those airlines where they have fixed video screens. they can suffer from glare making it very hard to see.

if you have screens on a pivot that can be moved that's fine, but many airlines in business class have the screen fixed in place. economy can be just as bad.