Winter Operations/De-icing Procedures
Feb 23, 2011 | 10:08 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Winter Operations/De-icing Procedures
Why does the FAA and the airlines continue to use glycol (an 80 year old technology) to de-ice/anti-ice aircraft? (reference Kilfrost.com) After considering the improvements made in the electronics industry, it would seem cost effective to manufacture future aircraft with heating elements built into the airfoils and/or airframe thus bypassing the need to use any de-icing system. Wouldn't a heated wing/airframe meet the "clean aircraft" concept. Our national airspace system would be safer and more reliable. Our GDP would benefit with fewer missed meetings and overall stress on the traveling public. Does anybody know why the FAA. airlines, or aircraft manufacturers are not pursuing a type of heated wing/airframe?
Feb 23, 2011 | 10:17 am
#2
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sacramento
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Why does the FAA and the airlines continue to use glycol (an 80 year old technology) to de-ice/anti-ice aircraft? (reference Kilfrost.com) After considering the improvements made in the electronics industry, it would seem cost effective to manufacture future aircraft with heating elements built into the airfoils and/or airframe thus bypassing the need to use any de-icing system. Wouldn't a heated wing/airframe meet the "clean aircraft" concept. Our national airspace system would be safer and more reliable. Our GDP would benefit with fewer missed meetings and overall stress on the traveling public. Does anybody know why the FAA. airlines, or aircraft manufacturers are not pursuing a type of heated wing/airframe?
I've seen quite a few, failed attempts to this, it seems we are stuck with pouring on chemicals
Feb 23, 2011 | 10:34 am
#3
Join Date: Dec 2009
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You also need to consider the weight issue. Yeah, you'd save some weight by losing the current deicing system, but how much weight would you gain?
Also, how would a heated skin system make the NAS safer and more reliable? I could see it reducing environmental impact of deicing chemicals, but I don't recall any recent US commercial aviation accidents where icing played a role (the last one that springs to mind is the crash out of Reagan back in the 80s, I think?).
It seems like the only advantage of a heated skin system would be less direct impact from the chemicals.
And welcome to FT! ^
Also, how would a heated skin system make the NAS safer and more reliable? I could see it reducing environmental impact of deicing chemicals, but I don't recall any recent US commercial aviation accidents where icing played a role (the last one that springs to mind is the crash out of Reagan back in the 80s, I think?).
It seems like the only advantage of a heated skin system would be less direct impact from the chemicals.
And welcome to FT! ^
Feb 23, 2011 | 10:47 am
#4
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hotwing, welcome to Flyertalk!
We're going to move this thread to TravelBuzz which is more of our general forum for travel related questions.
Please follow at its new home.
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Cholula
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We're going to move this thread to TravelBuzz which is more of our general forum for travel related questions.
Please follow at its new home.
___________________
Cholula
CommunityBuzz! Co-Moderator
Feb 23, 2011 | 11:59 am
#5
Join Date: Aug 2009
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In addition to what has been said, deicing is a very small part of an airframe's life. Hauling around all that extra equipment is like keeping a snowblower in the trunk of your car for those times you need to dig out of a parking space.
Feb 23, 2011 | 12:30 pm
#6
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Electrically heating the entire wing surface enough to melt hours' worth of ice accumulation would be not only weight prohibitive but would require far more power than is available from engine- or APU-driven generators.
Heated wing leading edges (usually engine bleed air, but sometimes electric) are used on some aircraft as an anti-icing measure in flight to prevent it forming in the first place - ice tends to accumulate on the leading edge of the wing first and grow backwards, so you only need to heat the front.
Heated wing leading edges (usually engine bleed air, but sometimes electric) are used on some aircraft as an anti-icing measure in flight to prevent it forming in the first place - ice tends to accumulate on the leading edge of the wing first and grow backwards, so you only need to heat the front.
Feb 23, 2011 | 12:51 pm
#7
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If you want to ask some of the resident FT pilots, there's a thread in the UA forum where pilots answer questions: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...-q-thread.html
Feb 23, 2011 | 1:55 pm
#8
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While it doesn't directly answer your question, there's a good online article about winter operations (including de-icing) here:
http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_...ing/index.html
http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_...ing/index.html
Feb 23, 2011 | 2:21 pm
#9
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Not sure if this was the last but the one you are referring to is Air Florida Flight 90 on January 13, 1982 from Washington National (at that time, Reagan was a President, not an airport). In that case, the real problem was pilot error in not properly identifying the icing problems and taking the appropriate steps to deal with it, rather than a failure of the system, per se.
Feb 23, 2011 | 7:03 pm
#10
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Not sure if this was the last but the one you are referring to is Air Florida Flight 90 on January 13, 1982 from Washington National (at that time, Reagan was a President, not an airport). In that case, the real problem was pilot error in not properly identifying the icing problems and taking the appropriate steps to deal with it, rather than a failure of the system, per se.
The article I linked above specifically references that incident...
Feb 24, 2011 | 1:30 pm
#11
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OP, you wouldn't happen to know of a company that can provide heating elements to the aircraft industry would you?
Thermawing
Delcam/GKM Aerospace
Thermawing
Delcam/GKM Aerospace
Last edited by CPRich; Feb 24, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Feb 24, 2011 | 8:15 pm
#12
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 632
OP, you wouldn't happen to know of a company that can provide heating elements to the aircraft industry would you?
Thermawing
Delcam/GKM Aerospace
Thermawing
Delcam/GKM Aerospace
Feb 24, 2011 | 9:09 pm
#13
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Yeah, based on the original posters chosen name and the fact that it is a first post I am waiting for the sales pitch to begin about how their new miraculous system will solve the entire industries issues.
Sales pitch in 3, 2, 1.....
Sales pitch in 3, 2, 1.....
Feb 24, 2011 | 10:19 pm
#14
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Feb 28, 2011 | 9:43 am
#15
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Thanks CPRich, for the useful information regarding Thermawing and Delcam/GKM Aerospace. By heating the 787 leading edges only it seems like Boeing missed an opportunity for an on time winter operations aircraft. Nearly 90,000 flights were cancelled in winter 2010, due in part to time requirements for de-icing costing the airlines $600 million reference bloomberg article. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ellations.html