A question on ethics
Nov 19, 2009 | 12:48 am
#31
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I'd have thought most relatives would be happy to have you for $3000 for a month.
Nov 19, 2009 | 1:00 am
#32
Join Date: Feb 2005
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........
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
......
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
......
I wonder if you'd have been happy to recount this story to your bosses at the time.
This sounds like an example of being within the rules but not within the spirit of them. Lots of trouble with this in the UK at the moment with our politicians.
Nov 19, 2009 | 7:37 am
#33
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Posts: 285
2) Buy $3000 ticket, upgrade with SWU, take $1500 TSP payment = $4500, company saves $1500, director arrives at destination more rested and ready to be productive than he would in Y. I see no problem with this, but this seems to be where the difference of opinion here lies.
*Coworker A buys a $4000 J ticket as he is allowed to.
*Coworker B takes the $1000 (our company's amount) to buy a Y ticket (to save the company money). The lowest available Y ticket is $1000. So, the company should save $2000. She, however, bought the lowest upgradeable fare and upgraded with miles. That ticket was $2400. The company only saves $600 (and spent $1000 to save that $600).
The introduction to the company policy on the $1000 payment actually reads: "This policy was created to give the employee an incentive to forgo premium class travel to save the company the maximum amount possible."
The maximum in this case was $2000, but the company only saved $600
Nov 19, 2009 | 8:13 am
#34
Join Date: May 2007
Programs: United, American, Southwest, USAirways, Delta
Posts: 1,874
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
What if the only ticket your company could find had been a $5000 first class ticket - would you still have been comfortable doing what you did?
A quick ethics test - Did you tell your manager what you did?
Nov 19, 2009 | 8:18 am
#35
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 93
I agree unless the company policy specifically forbids it (a big part of my job is interpreting ethics issues).
Nov 19, 2009 | 8:21 am
#36
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My attitude on this (and I book my own travel with nobody over my shoulder) is that I don't get to play situational ethics in this case. Either:
(1) I pocket the $1500 and I book the cheapest fare class available and fly however I can fly -- if the cheapest allows a personal upgrade fine, but I won't spend a penny more than I have to.
(2) Buy the J ticket.
I'm not taking the $1500 to fly Y. I'm taking it to save the company the most money possible.
The only variation I'd take is that I'd fly *my* airline. It's my policy without an incentive and this shouldn't change with an incentive.
Of course, I have no such incentive (and of course such an incentive is taxable income) and I always fly Y, so I may not be the best to ask.
Driving 600 miles at 50 a mile would return about $300 anyway, though, so the poster who drove could've easily gotten much of his Y ticket money anyway and it probably would be completely above board for any company's expense policy.
(1) I pocket the $1500 and I book the cheapest fare class available and fly however I can fly -- if the cheapest allows a personal upgrade fine, but I won't spend a penny more than I have to.
(2) Buy the J ticket.
I'm not taking the $1500 to fly Y. I'm taking it to save the company the most money possible.
The only variation I'd take is that I'd fly *my* airline. It's my policy without an incentive and this shouldn't change with an incentive.
Of course, I have no such incentive (and of course such an incentive is taxable income) and I always fly Y, so I may not be the best to ask.
Driving 600 miles at 50 a mile would return about $300 anyway, though, so the poster who drove could've easily gotten much of his Y ticket money anyway and it probably would be completely above board for any company's expense policy.
Nov 19, 2009 | 9:05 am
#37
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As a business owner and frequent flyer I see both sides of this case. Sometimes the cheapest fare to a faraway place involves two plane changes, multiple airlines and a ten-hour layover; I wouldn't make people take that deal, nor would I take it myself. And I'm sympathetic to people wanting to boo a particular airline or alliance (I do too) as long as the price differential isn't too glaring... say, 10% to 15%. And if someone is flying discount economy but upgrades using miles or status, more power to them; it costs me and our client nothing.
But it is definitely over the line to book an upgradeable fare that is 2X or 3X the lowest discount fare and stick the company / client with the bill. It is meet and right that this person was apparently fired for this shenanigan:
What would work for me is this:
1. Worker has to go somewhere. Discount economy is $1,000, lowest upgradeable economy fare is $2,000, Business is $5,000.
2. Worker opts to fly economy and take the $1,500 credit. We buy worker the $1,000 ticket.
3. Worker calls airline and refares the ticket to lowest upgradeable class, spending $1,000 of his own money.
4. Worker then upgrades to business using miles.
To me, that's totally clean. The company / client paid the lowest economy fare, the worker sits up front and comes out $500 ahead, and everything is above board.
If you worked for me and did that, you wouldn't be working for me any more. That's straight-up theft.
But it is definitely over the line to book an upgradeable fare that is 2X or 3X the lowest discount fare and stick the company / client with the bill. It is meet and right that this person was apparently fired for this shenanigan:
Coworker B takes the $1000 (our company's amount) to buy a Y ticket (to save the company money). The lowest available Y ticket is $1000. So, the company should save $2000. She, however, bought the lowest upgradeable fare and upgraded with miles. That ticket was $2400. The company only saves $600 (and spent $1000 to save that $600).
The introduction to the company policy on the $1000 payment actually reads: "This policy was created to give the employee an incentive to forgo premium class travel to save the company the maximum amount possible."
The introduction to the company policy on the $1000 payment actually reads: "This policy was created to give the employee an incentive to forgo premium class travel to save the company the maximum amount possible."
1. Worker has to go somewhere. Discount economy is $1,000, lowest upgradeable economy fare is $2,000, Business is $5,000.
2. Worker opts to fly economy and take the $1,500 credit. We buy worker the $1,000 ticket.
3. Worker calls airline and refares the ticket to lowest upgradeable class, spending $1,000 of his own money.
4. Worker then upgrades to business using miles.
To me, that's totally clean. The company / client paid the lowest economy fare, the worker sits up front and comes out $500 ahead, and everything is above board.
If you worked for me and did that, you wouldn't be working for me any more. That's straight-up theft.
Nov 19, 2009 | 9:24 am
#38
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What would work for me is this:
1. Worker has to go somewhere. Discount economy is $1,000, lowest upgradeable economy fare is $2,000, Business is $5,000.
2. Worker opts to fly economy and take the $1,500 credit. We buy worker the $1,000 ticket.
3. Worker calls airline and refares the ticket to lowest upgradeable class, spending $1,000 of his own money.
4. Worker then upgrades to business using miles.
To me, that's totally clean. The company / client paid the lowest economy fare, the worker sits up front and comes out $500 ahead, and everything is above board.
1. Worker has to go somewhere. Discount economy is $1,000, lowest upgradeable economy fare is $2,000, Business is $5,000.
2. Worker opts to fly economy and take the $1,500 credit. We buy worker the $1,000 ticket.
3. Worker calls airline and refares the ticket to lowest upgradeable class, spending $1,000 of his own money.
4. Worker then upgrades to business using miles.
To me, that's totally clean. The company / client paid the lowest economy fare, the worker sits up front and comes out $500 ahead, and everything is above board.
Nov 19, 2009 | 10:48 am
#39
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 57
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
His went on over a LONG time period though. He was also charged with tax evasion over it.
Not saying that would happen to you on a one off time, but be careful if you decide to do that again.
Last edited by Menace to Sobriety; Nov 19, 2009 at 10:54 am
Nov 19, 2009 | 11:07 am
#40
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Since we are talking ethics, does anyone hear hesistate to trade on CC? If the airline catches you and puts you on their no-fly list or if they catch you at checkin in front of your boss, what would happen in your company?
Does any company ban flyertalk in their code of ethics?
Does any company ban flyertalk in their code of ethics?
Nov 19, 2009 | 11:08 am
#41
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Nov 19, 2009 | 11:09 am
#42
Join Date: Jun 2007
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http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-12818053.html
I presume Mr Collins thought the amounts were small, the net effect to his employer was negligible and that he was too important to be called to account.
Nov 19, 2009 | 11:11 am
#43
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The payout stipend waives the employee's right to require the company pay for the C-class seat he is eligible for. The payout stipend is not for the employee's promise to sit in a big seat in front.
Therefore, no ethics problem.
Similarly, my company pays $40 per diem. Whether I actually spend $40
to eat, or pocket the $40 and eat TV dinners using my hotel room microwave, is irrelevant to the company. They know that each day I am travelling for them is $40 out of the company's funds. It's not important whose pocket that $40 ends up in....mine or some restaurant's.
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
==============
On another occasion, I needed to report to OKC on Monday for a job interview. A Y-ticket was sent to me. Again, I kept the Y-ticket, found a M-class ticket (requiring Sat overnight) to DFW. On Sat, I flew to DFW, hung around DFW eating delicious BBQ, and got in my self-paid rental car and drove to OKC Sunday night. I turned in my bargain National car, and picked up the Hertz car that was already waiting for me. Monday night, I turned in the Hertz car, got into another rental car and drove to DFW for my flight home. Even after the additional hotel, car rent, and BBQ charges, I came out ahead.
Therefore, no ethics problem.
Similarly, my company pays $40 per diem. Whether I actually spend $40
to eat, or pocket the $40 and eat TV dinners using my hotel room microwave, is irrelevant to the company. They know that each day I am travelling for them is $40 out of the company's funds. It's not important whose pocket that $40 ends up in....mine or some restaurant's.
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
==============
On another occasion, I needed to report to OKC on Monday for a job interview. A Y-ticket was sent to me. Again, I kept the Y-ticket, found a M-class ticket (requiring Sat overnight) to DFW. On Sat, I flew to DFW, hung around DFW eating delicious BBQ, and got in my self-paid rental car and drove to OKC Sunday night. I turned in my bargain National car, and picked up the Hertz car that was already waiting for me. Monday night, I turned in the Hertz car, got into another rental car and drove to DFW for my flight home. Even after the additional hotel, car rent, and BBQ charges, I came out ahead.
Nov 19, 2009 | 11:17 am
#44
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 93
[...]
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
I used to work for a company in Southern California. One Friday, they told me I had to be in Las Vegas on Monday for a huge week-long convention. All flights were sold out; they finally found a Y-class ticket for $677 round trip. The usual fare is $78.
I kept the Y-ticket and drove there myself (300 miles one way). The Saturday following the convention, I drove myself back.
Later I applied the full-fare ticket (as good as cash) to several personal trips.
clearly unethical IMO and arguably illegal, as others noted ... it's not the same as the example under discussion where the cost to the employer is the same whether or not the employee uses the personal upgrade ...
all you were entitled to is the cost to get you there & back and if you chose to drive, then its X miles x $0.xx per mile (whatever the current reimbursement for using a POV is).
Nov 19, 2009 | 11:20 am
#45
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I agree, but I bet there are a lot of companies out there that would consider this completely wrong. Those are companies where other people book travel and would send you through Zimbabwe if it save $12 and would keep your miles if there was a clean and legal way to do so.
