Using Bluetooth devices in-flight
Aug 22, 2004 | 4:28 am
#1
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,502
Using Bluetooth devices in-flight
Hi All,
I have kind of a dumb question for you. I think I already know the answer but thought I'd double check anyways.
Recently I purchased a Bluetooth GPS Receiver and would love to use it on my next flight. Am I right in thinking that Bluetooth devices cannot be operated in-flight?
After searching in this forum the only reference I found was that I can use a GPS receiver on most airlines, but I think they refer to a GPS mouse. No specific mention was made about Bluetooth GPS Receivers. Since the range of Bluetooth is about 30 ft, would it still interfere with aircraft navigations?
Any light you can shed on this is greatly appreciated.
I have kind of a dumb question for you. I think I already know the answer but thought I'd double check anyways.
Recently I purchased a Bluetooth GPS Receiver and would love to use it on my next flight. Am I right in thinking that Bluetooth devices cannot be operated in-flight?
After searching in this forum the only reference I found was that I can use a GPS receiver on most airlines, but I think they refer to a GPS mouse. No specific mention was made about Bluetooth GPS Receivers. Since the range of Bluetooth is about 30 ft, would it still interfere with aircraft navigations?
Any light you can shed on this is greatly appreciated.
Aug 22, 2004 | 10:34 am
#4
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GPS is a no no!
Regardless of the wireless broadcast issue, which is a no no, no broadcast transmissions of any kind are allowed. that means laptops, PDA's with 802.xx need to have the cards disabled.
but GPS has always been writen up on the more detailed descriptions, sometimes you see the pictures on the international security videos, as this could possibly send erronous data.
Now, I know some of the NO NOTHING IN FLIGHT is overkill, but something as flight specific as GPS data I would suspect I would rather not even risk it.
the FAA site has a much more detailed list of things they specifically ban, check out their site at www.faa.gov
but GPS has always been writen up on the more detailed descriptions, sometimes you see the pictures on the international security videos, as this could possibly send erronous data.
Now, I know some of the NO NOTHING IN FLIGHT is overkill, but something as flight specific as GPS data I would suspect I would rather not even risk it.
the FAA site has a much more detailed list of things they specifically ban, check out their site at www.faa.gov
Aug 24, 2004 | 5:26 pm
#5
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Originally Posted by nmenaker
Regardless of the wireless broadcast issue, which is a no no, no broadcast transmissions of any kind are allowed. that means laptops, PDA's with 802.xx need to have the cards disabled.
but GPS has always been writen up on the more detailed descriptions, sometimes you see the pictures on the international security videos, as this could possibly send erronous data.
Now, I know some of the NO NOTHING IN FLIGHT is overkill, but something as flight specific as GPS data I would suspect I would rather not even risk it.
the FAA site has a much more detailed list of things they specifically ban, check out their site at www.faa.gov
but GPS has always been writen up on the more detailed descriptions, sometimes you see the pictures on the international security videos, as this could possibly send erronous data.
Now, I know some of the NO NOTHING IN FLIGHT is overkill, but something as flight specific as GPS data I would suspect I would rather not even risk it.
the FAA site has a much more detailed list of things they specifically ban, check out their site at www.faa.gov
Myth.
The FAA doesn't care, and several airlines explicitly permit use of GPS in-flight (Alaska, among others, IIRC.)
However, as an intentional transmitter, a Bluetooth-based GPS mdoule would be against the rules.
Aug 24, 2004 | 5:37 pm
#6
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isn't that what we are talking here.
Originally Posted by lairdb
Myth.
The FAA doesn't care, and several airlines explicitly permit use of GPS in-flight (Alaska, among others, IIRC.)
However, as an intentional transmitter, a Bluetooth-based GPS mdoule would be against the rules.
The FAA doesn't care, and several airlines explicitly permit use of GPS in-flight (Alaska, among others, IIRC.)
However, as an intentional transmitter, a Bluetooth-based GPS mdoule would be against the rules.
A BT GPS receiver, wouldn't it be transmitting the GPS coordinates to some other device that it has made a BT connection with?
Aug 24, 2004 | 5:52 pm
#7
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Originally Posted by nmenaker
A BT GPS receiver, wouldn't it be transmitting the GPS coordinates to some other device that it has made a BT connection with?
It's a transmitter, and even though it's low power it's not permitted.
Aug 25, 2004 | 2:12 am
#8
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Posts: 1,502
One of the nice features about Bluetooth is that the broadcast can be ignored.
Surely the airlines can choose to ignore these broadcasts?
Understanding Wireless Communications in Public Safety
When Bluetooth-enabled devices come within range of each other, a wireless
communication automatically takes place during which it is determined if the
devices have data to share, and/or if one needs to control the other. Each
device has an address assigned from a group of addresses reserved for each
class of devices. When one Bluetooth device detects another, this address
range is searched to see if the new device is a companion device.
If there is a need to communicate, the devices form a personal area network
(PAN, or piconet) that could fill a room (for a computer or stereo system),
or simply link an MP3 player on the belt to a set of headphones being worn
by the user. Different piconets establish their own random frequency
hopping algorithm, limiting interference between devices within range of
each other. Communications speeds vary from 57 kbps in one direction and
721 kbps in the other, to a bi-directional speed of 432.6 kbps.
[The full report is at: http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/wireless2003.pdf]
When Bluetooth-enabled devices come within range of each other, a wireless
communication automatically takes place during which it is determined if the
devices have data to share, and/or if one needs to control the other. Each
device has an address assigned from a group of addresses reserved for each
class of devices. When one Bluetooth device detects another, this address
range is searched to see if the new device is a companion device.
If there is a need to communicate, the devices form a personal area network
(PAN, or piconet) that could fill a room (for a computer or stereo system),
or simply link an MP3 player on the belt to a set of headphones being worn
by the user. Different piconets establish their own random frequency
hopping algorithm, limiting interference between devices within range of
each other. Communications speeds vary from 57 kbps in one direction and
721 kbps in the other, to a bi-directional speed of 432.6 kbps.
[The full report is at: http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/wireless2003.pdf]
Aug 25, 2004 | 6:49 am
#9
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Originally Posted by Latitudes
One of the nice features about Bluetooth is that the broadcast can be ignored.
Surely the airlines can choose to ignore these broadcasts?
Surely the airlines can choose to ignore these broadcasts?
There are a number of navigation systems on the aircraft that are analog, including the instrument landing systems, and they do not have the capability of ignoring any signal that is causing interference.
Aug 25, 2004 | 6:55 am
#10
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Originally Posted by bollar
No. The BT transmission can cause interference with the electronics that are used on the aircraft. In my own experience, this is usually manifested in interference heard over the communications and navigation radios.
There are a number of navigation systems on the aircraft that are analog, including the instrument landing systems, and they do not have the capability of ignoring any signal that is causing interference.
There are a number of navigation systems on the aircraft that are analog, including the instrument landing systems, and they do not have the capability of ignoring any signal that is causing interference.
Even WiFi shouldn't be a problem. GSM phones however ARE a problem as they are capable of transmitting at a full 2watts, enough to possibly cause problems.
Aug 25, 2004 | 7:04 am
#11
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Originally Posted by ScottC
There is absolutely no way in the world that a Bluetooth transmitter will be able to reach the cockpit... With it's extremely low power it's not going to be a problem, however it is still not permitted.
Even WiFi shouldn't be a problem. GSM phones however ARE a problem as they are capable of transmitting at a full 2watts, enough to possibly cause problems.
Even WiFi shouldn't be a problem. GSM phones however ARE a problem as they are capable of transmitting at a full 2watts, enough to possibly cause problems.
As I've mentioned in other threads, it has been demonstrated to me that electronic devices in the cabin can cause interference on the radios. IMO, the interference was not flight-threatening, but I must reject any argument that suggests electronic devices can not have any impact at all on the aircraft.
Aug 25, 2004 | 7:12 am
#12
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There is absolutely no proof that cell phones, bluetooth or WiFi can cause interference with aircraft nav and control systems. There have been tests and they have all come back negative. Some people do tests in special chambers and come back with so-so results. But all tests done on real aircraft with real Boeing, Airbus, FAA and phone engineers have failed to produce any evidence of interference.
Aug 25, 2004 | 7:23 am
#13
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Originally Posted by bollar
It doesn't have to reach the cockpit in order to cause interference. Being near a nearby antenna or wiring harness may also suffice.
As I've mentioned in other threads, it has been demonstrated to me that electronic devices in the cabin can cause interference on the radios. IMO, the interference was not flight-threatening, but I must reject any argument that suggests electronic devices can not have any impact at all on the aircraft.
As I've mentioned in other threads, it has been demonstrated to me that electronic devices in the cabin can cause interference on the radios. IMO, the interference was not flight-threatening, but I must reject any argument that suggests electronic devices can not have any impact at all on the aircraft.
In Bluetooth we are talking about 2.5-10mW of power, that isn't even enough to penetrate the plastic wall to get close to the cabling, plus Bluetooth devices don't have a very good antenna.
Considering some airlines (like Lufthansa) are now offering their customers WiFi equipped laptops it's clear that all the talk of problems from LOW power devices was just poppycock...
I'm still not convinced a high(er) power device like a cellphone is safe yet though.
Aug 25, 2004 | 7:37 am
#14
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Originally Posted by stimpy
There is absolutely no proof that cell phones, bluetooth or WiFi can cause interference with aircraft nav and control systems. There have been tests and they have all come back negative. Some people do tests in special chambers and come back with so-so results. But all tests done on real aircraft with real Boeing, Airbus, FAA and phone engineers have failed to produce any evidence of interference.
Which concludes that there is interference generated by mobile phones. It also concludes that equipment installed or manufactured before Jul 1984 is particularly suseptible to this interference.
To your point, though, Boeing recognizes that mobile phones have the capacity to cause interference on airline communication / navigation frequencies, but they can not demonstrate a situation where one has actually caused interference: Interference from Electronic Devices
Aug 25, 2004 | 8:21 am
#15
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On my flight from DFW to CUN, it was explained like this: "No communications devices may be used at any time on this flight."
So, what, we can't pass notes back and forth? Read a book? yah ok... <ditz>
So, what, we can't pass notes back and forth? Read a book? yah ok... <ditz>