Why Apple snubs Flash
May 8, 2010 | 1:55 pm
#1
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Why Apple snubs Flash
Apple CEO Steve Jobs on Thursday said 200,000 applications are available in his company's mobile app store - and they all benefit because they're not built in Flash.
In a post on Apple's website, Jobs listed reasons none of those apps support Flash, a format that supports video, animation, games and other content and is made by tech competitor Adobe.
Some tech bloggers have criticized Apple for not supporting Flash on its mobile devices, including the iPad, iPhone and iPod. But Jobs said Adobe Flash is a format for the past.
Performance, not business strategy, guides Apple's decision not to use the format, he said.
"Flash was created during the PC era for PCs and mice," he wrote in the post. "Flash is a successful business for Adobe, and we can understand why they want to push it beyond PCs. But the mobile era is about low power devices, touch interfaces and open web standards all areas where Flash falls short."
Adobe has complained its business "could be harmed" by Apple's decision not to use the format.
Jobs listed several specific reasons Apple doesn't use Flash. Some of the more interesting ones:
_ "iPhone, iPod and iPad users arent missing much video," he wrote.
_Apple products run more reliably without Flash: "Flash is the number one reason Macs crash."
_Flash isn't made for touch-screen devices: "... Many Flash websites rely on 'rollovers,' which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot." Apple's touch screens don't use rollovers.
_And, most important, Jobs said, is that Flash slows down app development: " We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers."
What do you think? Is Jobs right, or should Apple support Flash on its devices?
In a post on Apple's website, Jobs listed reasons none of those apps support Flash, a format that supports video, animation, games and other content and is made by tech competitor Adobe.
Some tech bloggers have criticized Apple for not supporting Flash on its mobile devices, including the iPad, iPhone and iPod. But Jobs said Adobe Flash is a format for the past.
Performance, not business strategy, guides Apple's decision not to use the format, he said.
"Flash was created during the PC era for PCs and mice," he wrote in the post. "Flash is a successful business for Adobe, and we can understand why they want to push it beyond PCs. But the mobile era is about low power devices, touch interfaces and open web standards all areas where Flash falls short."
Adobe has complained its business "could be harmed" by Apple's decision not to use the format.
Jobs listed several specific reasons Apple doesn't use Flash. Some of the more interesting ones:
_ "iPhone, iPod and iPad users arent missing much video," he wrote.
_Apple products run more reliably without Flash: "Flash is the number one reason Macs crash."
_Flash isn't made for touch-screen devices: "... Many Flash websites rely on 'rollovers,' which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot." Apple's touch screens don't use rollovers.
_And, most important, Jobs said, is that Flash slows down app development: " We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers."
What do you think? Is Jobs right, or should Apple support Flash on its devices?
I agree with Steve Jobs.
May 8, 2010 | 2:03 pm
#2
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It has nothing to do with the technology of flash. Apple merely wants to prevent the development of applications that could run as easily on Blackberry or Android as they do on an iPhone. Such inter-platform applications would seriously erode apple's app monopoly.
I think the DOJ is correct to step up it's antitrust investigations. Using a dominant position in an industry to set terms to disadvantage other players isn't legal in this country. Wasn't Apple screaming about that twenty years ago?
I think the DOJ is correct to step up it's antitrust investigations. Using a dominant position in an industry to set terms to disadvantage other players isn't legal in this country. Wasn't Apple screaming about that twenty years ago?
May 8, 2010 | 2:07 pm
#3
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His whole "Thoughts on Flash" post:
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
May 8, 2010 | 3:00 pm
#4
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yes it does. flash is buggy and a cpu hog.
no different than what every other company does. microsoft requires silverlight for windows phone 7 development, and why they came up with c# and .net on windows.
what monopoly is that? they're currently #3, behind nokia and rim, with about 16% of the market (idc data, 2010).
Apple merely wants to prevent the development of applications that could run as easily on Blackberry or Android as they do on an iPhone.
Such inter-platform applications would seriously erode apple's app monopoly.
May 8, 2010 | 3:11 pm
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The premise of this thread is easily testable.
I read Steve Jobs missive and decided i ought to test his thesis. I have two identical MacMini's at home, so I loaded Flash on one and Java on the other to read the identical clip. The Flash one took 243 seconds from the time of download beginning to play commencing, and had two brief halts during playback. The Java took 125 seconds for the same download and had no halts on playback.
Of course anybody can make a similar test. It seems fairly obvious that Flash is buggy and old-fashioned in comparison to alternatives. I conclude that Mr. Jobs may be irritating but he's apparently correct.
I read Steve Jobs missive and decided i ought to test his thesis. I have two identical MacMini's at home, so I loaded Flash on one and Java on the other to read the identical clip. The Flash one took 243 seconds from the time of download beginning to play commencing, and had two brief halts during playback. The Java took 125 seconds for the same download and had no halts on playback.
Of course anybody can make a similar test. It seems fairly obvious that Flash is buggy and old-fashioned in comparison to alternatives. I conclude that Mr. Jobs may be irritating but he's apparently correct.
May 8, 2010 | 3:20 pm
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The only way Apple can pretend Flash doesn't exist, is if the world stops using Flash. Plenty of hotels, airlines, restaurants and more all use Flash.
I don't care that I can't access Hulu on my iPhone - I do care that I constantly run into sites that just don't work. There is a reason Google is bringing Flash to Android - there is demand for it.
Though I do understand Steve Jobs - Flash usually sucks, and it is indeed a hog, but you can't pretend it doesn't matter and stick your fingers in your ears.
Also, there is clearly more to this than just standards - Apple is obviously interested in preventing Flash from becoming a development platform.
I don't care that I can't access Hulu on my iPhone - I do care that I constantly run into sites that just don't work. There is a reason Google is bringing Flash to Android - there is demand for it.
Though I do understand Steve Jobs - Flash usually sucks, and it is indeed a hog, but you can't pretend it doesn't matter and stick your fingers in your ears.
Also, there is clearly more to this than just standards - Apple is obviously interested in preventing Flash from becoming a development platform.
May 8, 2010 | 3:25 pm
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The only way Apple can pretend Flash doesn't exist, is if the world stops using Flash. Plenty of hotels, airlines, restaurants and more all use Flash.
I don't care that I can't access Hulu on my iPhone - I do care that I constantly run into sites that just don't work. There is a reason Google is bringing Flash to Android - there is demand for it.
Though I do understand Steve Jobs - Flash usually sucks, and it is indeed a hog, but you can't pretend it doesn't matter and stick your fingers in your ears.
Also, there is clearly more to this than just standards - Apple is obviously interested in preventing Flash from becoming a development platform.
I don't care that I can't access Hulu on my iPhone - I do care that I constantly run into sites that just don't work. There is a reason Google is bringing Flash to Android - there is demand for it.
Though I do understand Steve Jobs - Flash usually sucks, and it is indeed a hog, but you can't pretend it doesn't matter and stick your fingers in your ears.
Also, there is clearly more to this than just standards - Apple is obviously interested in preventing Flash from becoming a development platform.
May 8, 2010 | 4:32 pm
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Dominant position? In which market that uses flash is Apple dominant? Please don't even try to use the tablet market. Apple was not a player in the tablet market when it made the decision to avoid flash. They took major heat and countless negative reviews and press clips about the decision to avoid flash.
So which "dominant position" are you talking about?
May 8, 2010 | 9:34 pm
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May 8, 2010 | 11:15 pm
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Funny... when I point out that Blackberry has far more users the apple cult members put their fingers in their ears and deny it to the death. But point out how apple uses it's outsize influence over the mobile app market to the detriment of developing apps that can be used across multiple platforms and all of a sudden apple is irrelevant. Apparently 200,000 iphone apps vs 5,000 blackberry apps doesn't constitute a dominant position in the mobile app space. Well, I hope apple is irrelevant and I'll be quoting you 
So far I haven't heard anything to prove that flash is buggy on anything except MacOS. I haven't ever had a flash problem with Windows and Firefox - but what do I know. I won't even deny that flash may be a horrible technology. Not saying it is - but not denying it could be. I'm just saying that Apple appears to be using its influence in ways inappropriate to protect it's dominant position in the mobile app market by preventing any development platform which could be used to make device independent apps. It isn't only Flash - it is any system which provides a layer of abstraction between the OS and the app. Other examples include Java and .NET
So far I haven't heard anything to prove that flash is buggy on anything except MacOS. I haven't ever had a flash problem with Windows and Firefox - but what do I know. I won't even deny that flash may be a horrible technology. Not saying it is - but not denying it could be. I'm just saying that Apple appears to be using its influence in ways inappropriate to protect it's dominant position in the mobile app market by preventing any development platform which could be used to make device independent apps. It isn't only Flash - it is any system which provides a layer of abstraction between the OS and the app. Other examples include Java and .NET
May 9, 2010 | 5:56 am
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Funny... when I point out that Blackberry has far more users the apple cult members put their fingers in their ears and deny it to the death. But point out how apple uses it's outsize influence over the mobile app market to the detriment of developing apps that can be used across multiple platforms and all of a sudden apple is irrelevant. Apparently 200,000 iphone apps vs 5,000 blackberry apps doesn't constitute a dominant position in the mobile app space. Well, I hope apple is irrelevant and I'll be quoting you
So if someone questions your faulty assumptions they automatically become an Apple cult member?
You seem to like to mix your numbers. Both Nokia and RIM have larger market shares than Apple in the phone market (where 95% of those 200,000 apps exist) but you are trying to say that Apple is dominant? Riiiiight.
May 9, 2010 | 10:51 am
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Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)
You've never had a Flash problem? Ever?
Have you actually used it?
I find it absolutely inconceivable that Flash has either not failed to load correctly or flat out crashed on anyone who regularly uses it.
So, for the record, are you saying this isn't the case for you?
Originally Posted by elCheapoDeluxe
Funny... when I point out that Blackberry has far more users the apple cult members put their fingers in their ears and deny it to the death. But point out how apple uses it's outsize influence over the mobile app market to the detriment of developing apps that can be used across multiple platforms and all of a sudden apple is irrelevant. Apparently 200,000 iphone apps vs 5,000 blackberry apps doesn't constitute a dominant position in the mobile app space. Well, I hope apple is irrelevant and I'll be quoting you
So far I haven't heard anything to prove that flash is buggy on anything except MacOS. I haven't ever had a flash problem with Windows and Firefox - but what do I know. I won't even deny that flash may be a horrible technology. Not saying it is - but not denying it could be. I'm just saying that Apple appears to be using its influence in ways inappropriate to protect it's dominant position in the mobile app market by preventing any development platform which could be used to make device independent apps. It isn't only Flash - it is any system which provides a layer of abstraction between the OS and the app. Other examples include Java and .NET
So far I haven't heard anything to prove that flash is buggy on anything except MacOS. I haven't ever had a flash problem with Windows and Firefox - but what do I know. I won't even deny that flash may be a horrible technology. Not saying it is - but not denying it could be. I'm just saying that Apple appears to be using its influence in ways inappropriate to protect it's dominant position in the mobile app market by preventing any development platform which could be used to make device independent apps. It isn't only Flash - it is any system which provides a layer of abstraction between the OS and the app. Other examples include Java and .NET
Have you actually used it?
I find it absolutely inconceivable that Flash has either not failed to load correctly or flat out crashed on anyone who regularly uses it.
So, for the record, are you saying this isn't the case for you?
May 9, 2010 | 11:15 am
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May 9, 2010 | 2:17 pm
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Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)
You've never had a Flash problem? Ever?
Have you actually used it?
I find it absolutely inconceivable that Flash has either not failed to load correctly or flat out crashed on anyone who regularly uses it.
So, for the record, are you saying this isn't the case for you?
You've never had a Flash problem? Ever?
Have you actually used it?
I find it absolutely inconceivable that Flash has either not failed to load correctly or flat out crashed on anyone who regularly uses it.
So, for the record, are you saying this isn't the case for you?
Edited to add: I wonder if it would be enlightening to make a chart with different browsers and different operating systems to find out where these problems are concentrated. Remember - I'm not even saying Flash is a good technology. I never use it as a programmer, but my experience as a pretty avid consumer just doesn't mesh with what Mr Jobs is saying. Maybe it is like the iPhone's reception problems: Apple has an aura of infallibility so it must be AT&T's problem - even if that Blackberry user also on AT&T right next to you has no problems at all. Similarly if Flash crashes Safari, it must be Flash. Or it could be that the Flash client for mac is just really crappy. Who knows.
Last edited by elCheapoDeluxe; May 9, 2010 at 2:28 pm