Swiss Tony

I'd say you have a valid claim under the EU rule 261/2004 for denied boarding compensation under the circumstances.

Full version - http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ne...%22&output=rss

More user friendly version - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4267095.stm

Obviouly it's an interesting case because (concurring with hfly) I susepct the reason they didn't want to carry you was because you were on the 737 BBJ and you can see why they would want to maintain the ambiance in the cabin, but this doesn't excuse the attempt to extort $6k from you...

Furthermore, it's a KL code on a Swiss carrier, so they might try to weasel out of it on those grounds - not sure how this affects the issue.

As you tell it though, they did however sell you a ticket for the flight and then refused carriage. I would contact KLM (or NWA) and try to claim under this rule.

Let us know how it goes...

hillrider

Well, the airline entered into a legally valid CONTRACT when they chose to issue the ticket for your infant child, so age is definitely not a question. Having entered into a contract, they have the legal obligation to provide you with transportation and make you whole if they don't. Note that they may have had the choice of refusing to sell you the ticket on that flight in the first place. Incidentally, given that NW officially handles all of KLM matter in the USA and issues all of KLM tickets, you effectively bought the ticket from the airline itself (and not even an agent), so there's no excuse of confusion or a third party being responsible for a snafu.

ABSOLUTELY!!! Recourse to the EU is definitely advisable, but you should write to NW asking for a full reimbursement of all incidental expenses that you incurred (down to a newspaper) plus wages lost for the extra day, submitting copies of all receipts. Give them 45 days; if you don't hear from them invest $40 in Small Court fees.

Incidentally, welcome to FT (and yes, this forum is fine, but airline-specific forums tend to get more readership).

KosraeTV

OMG ! That's terrible. I have no idea what the rules are with KLM but something doesn't sound right to me. I'd immediately notify NW and KLM of the sitaution, and I'd pursue it with the EU agencies that you can file complaints with. But NW issued it, and if NW issued and informed you of the rules then I'd also be upset with NW. You had the ticket in your hand issued by NW for the flight on KLM. I would immediately inform NW that you are willing to file a DOT complaint on them. If NW makes it right with you then I'd personally hold off on the DOT complaint but if they give you a run around or don't handle your costs then I'd file for sure. That's on top of small claims when you get back home.

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/problems.htm

Now, here's a little something I found out. If you make it a discrimination issue, if you claim discrimination (age discrimination) then by law they are required to do an internal investigation and they have 30 days to issue their findings. You can probably claim breach of contract as you had the ticket but if you do or say anything that indicates discrimination then they will immediately shut their mouths, transfer you to someone higher up, and they will shut their mouths also and not say a dang thing to you except that they will investigate it and respond in writting in 30 days. Which is kind of frustrating (or it was to me and this was on a different US based airline not NW but I assume the rules are the same as it was a legal matter). So if you are looking for immediate resolution don't make it a discrimination issue as they will take all 30 days to respond and it drags out longer then that as you go back and forth after that. I'm not sure how making it a discrimination issue will help you since it was a KLM flight but it was NW that issued you the ticket and you were denied service and did originate in the USA, they should be bound by what they issued you and if they issued you an infant ticket and denied you boarding because it was an infant then that is discrimination IMO. Add to the fact that they were willing to extort 6 K from you then something just doesn't sound right.

Before a small claims you should give them a chance to make it right by notifying them as that normally is the first thing in small claims that comes up, "did you notify them and try get resolution between you two before you filed." Should their investigations and resolutions to you not make you happy then file the complaints with DOT and EU agencies and such and go to small claims if you wish. I'd make NW pay as they ticketed it, and if the rules are what they say that no infant in first on KLM then NW should have known this and not issued you the ticket. Either way it's a NW problem IMO as well as a KLM problem.

I've flown both Domestic and Asian based carriers with children (infants and kids with their own seats) in FC with no problems ever from the airlines. I just can't believe you switched your plans around, I would have gone through the roof over this right there and been burning up my cell phone battery on the phone with every airline involved.

Swiss Tony

Can we just stress the fact that this wasn't a "normal" flight. It doesn't get around any issues with what is right or wrong, but it's clearly not a universal KLM policy. Whether it was just made up on the spot or an actual rule remains to be seen and the airline (be that KLM/NWA/Privatair) is def. in the wrong here but please, less on the ranting....

Swiss
(also a parent with a young child who flies J)

erik123

I have read on the KL forum that as a matter of policy infants were not allowed on the privateair flight. However, NWA (and KL as well) does sell infant tickets for this flight and has a legal obligation to transport you according to the contract - no matter what the "so called" policy states.

This is clearly an error on the part of KLM/NW and you should be compensated for it. I would spell out very clearly what you expect from them. If this were to happen to me I would pursue this very aggressively.

Besides - the 6K for an infnat with a seat was also in error as the published fare available at both KL and NW is:
1 Adult: $5084.00
1 Infant in seat: $3832.00

Yorkieabroad

Thanks all for the replies, and apologies for not responding - I wasn't ignoring you! We've just got back from our trip which (flights apart) was great.

To top it all, we found we were downgraded on the way out anyway - I'm not quite sure what that was all about, as business clearly wasn't full because once we were on the plane, the aircrew sorted out a business seats for us after they heard our story! All very peculiar.......

And on the way back they managed to lose my daughters car seat which had been checked in.......

But we're back, the flights themselves were pretty good, and as I said, the vacation was excellent.


Just to address a couple of points :-

Those of you who assumed it was the Privatair Business only flight were correct, although we weren't advised of this, and only found out when we turned up at the airport to check in. to be honest, if we'd been told this was the case, we probably woudn't have taken the flights......see my earlier comment about preferring not to fly business with the kids anyway.

KosraeTV - thanks for that link - I didn't even know such a body existed! We've flown business and first with the children many times internationally(though not recently as I prefer to fly economy with the little ones in tow) and never had a problem. We pushed this as far as it was going to go at the airport, but when you hit a brick wall, theres not a lot further to go.

Erik - the 6k was a "top of the head" figure from the check in supervisor - he offered to get an actual cost, but we declined! The guy reckoned they had this problem "every week" with NW issuing infant tickets and KLM always refusing boarding. Seems unlikely, and it may just have been an attempt to divert the 'attention' away from him and blame someone else....

Once again, thanks for the advice, tips, links etc. If I get anywhere, I'll let you know!!


Cheers
Yorkie

KosraeTV

Glad your back and had a good trip. I'd be interested in hearing what the outcome is of this if you pursue it. I don't care about compensation you get if any, I'd just like to hear what NW and such has to say about what happened in your case.

erik123

KLM sells infant tickets for this flight on their website - in my view this puts them in a legal bind as you can't enter into a contract and then not honor it based on a badly publicized policy. In my view they denied you boarding and should provide you with IDB - check the KL forum for some additional info on this - it comes out to a significant amount. When you write you should stress that though in possession of confirmed tickets you were not allowed to board your flight. (as below)


The Passenger Rights are stipulated in Council Regulation No 295/91.

"The airline must offer that passenger a choice between:
- reimbursement without penalty of the cost of the ticket for the part of the journey not made or;
- re-routing to the passenger's final destination at the earliest opportunity or;
- re-routing at a later date at the passenger's convenience.

In addition, the airline must pay minimum compensation in cash as follows:
- EUR 150 for flights up to 3500 km (EUR 75 if the delay to the passenger is less than two hours);
- EUR 300 for flights over 3500 km (EUR 150 if the delay to the passenger is less than four hours);
- The compensation need not exceed the price of the ticket. Only if the passenger agrees can it be paid in vouchers or other services rather than cash."

erik123

halfswede

As a parent, have you ever flown with your young children in F or C? How old were they at the time? What did you do to make it go "smoothly" (assuming it did go smoothly)? Obviously a child's age is not necessarily related to maturity. Therefore, did you base your decision more on the maturity of the child at the time, the length of flight, time of day (overnight flight vs. daytime)? Is there an absolute minimum age at which you would take your child into C or F?

If you are not a parent, what do you think the "unofficial" policy should be? (on another post someone had said "row 40 or higher"...funny, but not what I would subscribe to. Some adult pax can be unruly, intoxicated, etc. and act much worse than a child.)

RickStevesWannabe

If there is, it doesn’t seem like UA is following the rule. And if there isn’t, then there really should be an age limit. My last flight from JFK-NRT was in C and there was a infant across the cabin from me. For half the flight it was WAHHHHHH WAHHHHHHH WAHHHHHH!!!!!

It really does knock down the level of service one should expect while in C or F. The last thing I want to hear is a baby wailing while I’m trying to sleep. I usually can brush it off easily but even someone with my infinite patience can get annoyed, especially during such a long flight.

kdeg

I brought my daughter (5 1/2 years) into C with me last week PDX-SFO-HKG-SIN. She is, all bias aside, an excellent flyer. From a parents perspective, the extra service is incredibly helpful for a long flight. All FAs and flight crew on each of our legs, but especially between HKG and SIN were fantastic, offering snacks, visits to the flight deck as well as little chats here and there.

The extra space (upper deck all the way) is also a life saver, giving us some room to move stuff about and put the extra coloring book, etc.

I've always failed to understand the anti-kid bias from a lot of flyers. From my perspective (even before having a kid of my own) the behavior of the "bad apples" is no different or more frequent than the adult "bad apples" except that it happens closer to waist level. At least with the kids, they're less likely to be drunkenly abusive toward the FAs or other passengers. And when kids do act up, its normally a failure of the parent to control the situation, instill some basic manners or recognize the kid's need for food or sleep

dcgators

My initial reaction was to say the same as the other FTer (as in rows 40 and up please), if the child is prone to misbehaving or if it is an infant who does not like traveling and will cry for the entire length of the flight.

But when I was a child, I flew around a the world (and then some) in F with my parents and my brother who is a year older. (Gee, I wonder why I find myself attracted to FT. It was like giving crack to a junkie ... )

We always behaved and never bothered any of the other passengers.

And I have witnessed both very well behaved kids (and parents) in premium cabins (as well as in the main cabin) and not-so-well behaved kids and/or parents. The key to me is how the parents are controlling their offspring(s), unless they are infants or toddlers.

You can't really win with very young children as they will usually do whatever they want no matter what the parents say or do. I sometimes wish I had an off-switch for my hearing when seated next to a screaming baby (or two).

Since the parents are paying for their child's ticket, they should have the liberty to fly any class of service they can afford to, as long as they remain mindful of how their kid's behavior may negatively affect the other pax.

Too often, the kids who are the real trouble on the plane are the ones who have the parents who let them do anything they want.

deckman

This is a moot discussion that comes up all the time here. UA has no policy on age limits in C or F. Therefore any discussion here is just opinion that has no bearing on anything whatsoever. UA won't change that policy and people are going to do what people are going to do regardless of your personal preference.

dcgators

We understand that UA allows children in C and F.

The OP was asking for FTers' opinions as to proper etiquette.

So I don't think that this is moot in any way (and in fact reflects well on the OP and anyone else who thinks of the other pax's well-being as well as their own). ^

Just my $.02.