MegatopLover

Chriscross: Peter4's comment quoted above is entirely overblown. Prostitution is present in Thailand and has been for quite some time, but giving you the impression that you will see it everywhere and should avoid Thailand entirely if you're not comfortable with that is inaccurate and borders on sanctimonious Western moralizing. In many many many trips to Thailand, I have encountered prostitution precious few times outside the red light district that is Patpong. You can absolutely enjoy all that Thailand has to offer without fear of encountering prostitutes lurking on every corner.

I have posted in another thread that Peter4's largely anti-Thai comments should be taken with a large grain of salt. To listen to him, you would think that every Thai is a prostitute or trying to scam you. His two posts immediately above show his true colors: he wouldn't trust a Thai to do anything. Yes, the facade of a knowing Westerner with insight on Thailand based on residency has been removed. Beneath it, a heart of gross prejudice has been revealed.

For newcomers to FlyerTalk, including (by post count, at least) Chriscross, I'll say that you run into folks like this here every once in a while. Some last, some get banned almost instantaneously for violating FT's Terms of Service. Everyone can decide for himself whose posts should be respected and heeded and whose should be ignored. For his outrageous anti-Thai bias, Peter4 has within a matter of weeks earned a place firmly on my "ignore" list.

Peter4

This comment is worth further thought, because most Western men traveling here for the first time are not familiar with the approach of Thai women.
There are thousands of reports on the web, and also in many books, about Western men who were not prepared for this aspect of Thai culture, and suffered unpleasant consequences.

On this topic of "First BKK trip...advice?", some of the most important advice would be about the prostitution.
It is not as simple as avoiding a certain red-light district.
If it were that easy, no need for further comments.
I will explain:

Many of the women working in the tourist areas here, take those jobs specifically to meet men from abroad.
These women have travelled far from their families.
They endure long working hours at low pay.
They live in squalid housing conditions.
But they do have a chance -- maybe a slim chance, but at least a chance -- of meeting a foreign man.

Maybe that meeting lasts only a few hours -- we call that prostitution.
Maybe the meeting lasts for some years -- we call that marriage.
Either way, it is a chance for these women to improve their lot in life, perhaps only for the price of a new cell phone for themselves, or school tuition for a child living with the grandparents back home.
Perhaps the improvement can be for some years, or even a lifetime, of support for the woman and her family thru marriage to a foreign man.
Either way, every day, they come by the hundreds from their poor villages, to try their luck with a job in the tourist areas.

Now, here is the most important aspect:
Most of these women are not full-on prostitutes as we might expect.
Most don't work in the brothels and bars, or walk the streets for trolling for "Johns".
Instead they are hotel staff, waitresses, foot massage girls, dental assistants, product demonstrators, and shop girls in large department stores if they are pretty, or small 7-Elevens, if they are plain.
Any job will do, as long as it offers the chance of some contact with foreign men.

And then the huge cultural difference appears.
Western men have received so little, for so long, from Western women, that when we see a smile, we think it means true love.
Due to widespread feminism since the 1980's, Western men under the age of about 40 or so, may never have experienced a positive encounter with Western women.
Western men over 40 are unlikely to have had pleasant experiences with Western women for two decades, but they can remember what it used to be like.

And then they come to Thailand.
Here, they find women who speak nicely to them, act in affectionate ways, touch and stand close, show interest in what they have to say, and, besides, are eager to go back to their hotel room for the night.
That must be LOVE!

Not so.
Not in Thailand.
Here it is an offer for a business deal.
Perhaps a long-term deal for marriage.
Perhaps short-time for just a few hours.
But, for the women, the objective is money.
Sometimes the objective is dressed up with the pretty name of "security".
However, the key point to realize is that romantic love is simply not an important factor here.

Any man travelling to Thailand will encounter this many, many, times, and, usually, in very subtle, indirect, ways.
Some men will not be prepared.
They will confuse a business proposition with love.
That is a big mistake here, and can lead to unexpected problems.

One of the things I appreciate about the Internet, is it has become a free-market of ideas.
I assume some travellers want to be prepared before they venture into a very different culture, such as that in Thailand.

If any specific questions, you are welcome to send me email or private message.

- Peter
.

transpac

OK, now that's about the silliest thing I've read here on FT ever.

I believe MegatopLover is referring to the ability, here on FT, to electronically ignore posts by certain users, within your user preferences. I've only ever added one person to that list. Off to make it two.

rollied

Thanks again for the pre-trip advice. It helped quite a bit.

We got back a couple of days ago. In all, we had a great time in Bangkok. The one less-than-perfect aspect was the feeling of having to be on guard whenever we were in heavily touristed areas -- e.g., around the Grand Palace, at the Chao Phraya ferry stop Tha Chang, outside the hotel, and Patapong -- we just had the sense that we couldn't get a straight answer from anyone.

We did most of our traveling by river ferry, skytrain, and foot.

Day 1 -- A quick walking trip from the Sofitel Silom to orient ourselves and visit Lumpini park. After an errant taxi ride, and some "Amazing Race" style antics, get ourselves to the Grand Palace area. Meet a nice "student" who obviously hasn't read any of the guide books that descibed his scam from start to finish. Was kind of fun dealing with him knowing it was a scam from the outset. We kindly declined his offer to take a tuk tuk to the "open" wats as we waited for the Grand Palace to "open." The Grand Palace, Wat Arun, and wat Pho were epic. Took the Chao Phraya Express down to the Hotel Orient for a couple of Singhas and a lovely dinner by the river. Walked to the skytrain and got back to the Sofitel in the late evening. Slept well after a short swim and a long steam.

Day 2 -- Cooking class at Baipai Cooking School. Started with a trip to a market near the school, very informative. The class was great and we're looking forward to trying the recipes on our own. R&R in the hotel for a few hours in the afternoon. Patpong.

Day 3 -- Opted for the tourist trip to Atthuya. The air conditioned bus was nice. The tour was fine, but we felt a bit trapped. The river cruise/dinner back to BKK was OK.

Day 4 -- Lazed around a bit in the morning. Went to MBK for some drugs (the wife picked up a sinus infection) and lunch. Toured China Town. Went up to the hippy/backpacker area around Khao San to get roti at Roti Mataba. Had a couple of beers at one of the guest houses to watch the westerners wander about. Picked up a couple of roti and ferried/skytrained back to the Sofitel.

Day 5 -- Tried to "For a fascinating round trip, take the Klong Bangkok Noi taxi from Chang pier, near the Royal Palace, which travels north through Thonburi, terminating at Bang Yai. Then walk to nearby Wat Sao Thong Hin to catch the Klong Om water taxi to Nonthaburi, from where the Chao Phraya River Express will take you south again to Chang pier. Fares on river taxis are up to 40p (30 baht)." but could find no sign at Tha Chang for the taxi to Klon Noi, only several folks looking to sell us longtail boat tours. Cut our losses, walked around the grounds at Thammasat University. Idled away some time in the hotel then to Chatujak to do our gift and souvenir shopping. The market was pretty much set up in prep for the weekend, but the crowds were thin, which mad getting around much easier. Skytrained back to the river and walked up to the Hotel Orient for drinks and our last dinner in Bangkok.

In all, a good time. Now that we know Bangkok a little, our next trip would use BKK as a stepping stone to other parts of Thailand and SE Asia.

numpty

after reading some of peter's drivel i was inclined to post a reply but what's the point.

glad you had a good trip op i've been visiting bkk for 20 years and lived there for 10, i still love it. there are many peters there but, like the prostitution, easy enough to avoid...

Peter4

Nice trip report.
Thank you, rollied, for taking time to write and post that.

- Peter
.

Chriscross

Thank all of you for the info.

I have actually been to Bangkok two times, but his will be the first time for my parents. After a lot of re-search, I have found five hotels:
Swissotel Nai Lert Park
Sofitel Silom
President Solitaire
Lebua
Majestic Grande
Does anyone have any experiences on these hotels regarding prices on room service, drinks/beer in the bars, distance (in meter/yards to Skytrain) or if the hotels are newly refurbished or not?

Cheers

rollied

First off, the OP might want to start this as a new thread topic so it doesn't get lost in the muddle of this thread.

I can't speak to comparison of the Sofitel Silom to the other hotels you list, but my wife and I stayed at the Silom last week and enjoyed it very much.

You might want to sign up on-line for the Sofitel Privledge card, it gives you a little bit of leverage if you want to ask for a better room. We were not able (as has been reported by others) to upgrade to their Club Level, but did get moved to a larger room on a higher floor. In all the hotel experience was great. Their breakfast buffet, which was included in out vacation package, was extensive and excellent -- offering american, asian, and european stlye foods.

Their fitness center was also top notch, with weight machines, free weights, and cardio machines. Mens and womens bathrooms each with sauna, steam room, and jacuzzi. Some complain about the size of the pool, but we found it charming.

The Silom is about a five minute walk to Patpong, if you need that experience. But more importantly, it is less than a ten minute walk to the Chong Nonsi station on the blue line.

ajc1970

deleted

Pointeater

Goto MBK for food and sightseeing then finish up with a foot massage . MBK is interesting to see, but for shopping save your baht for the weekend market, just bring comfortable shoes and something to tolerate the heat.

Bonehead

Having spent a year in Jakarta, I can attest to what Peter4 writes. It is bang on.

Meerkat

Having spent the last 12 years living in Asia, I think his views are well wide of the mark, but no different from the usual drivel from westerners who don't travel well.

allthai

Peter4 has no idea how the Thai culture works when it comes to romance and meeting women in Thailand. I have posted this in the "Advise for Visitors to Chiang Mai" Thread but needs to be said here. Here it is.

Dating and Romance Thai Style

Although this article is written mainly for the guys, the ladies will learn a lot of what and what not to do in public with your friends or mate of the opposite sex. The men will also learn the real way courtship works in Thailand and why.

The first thing to remember is that girls can touch the guys but the guys CANNOT touch the girls. So if you are walking down the street DO NOT hold hands. It is OK for the lady to put her arm and hand around the man’s arm but that’s about as far as it should go.

There is a reason for this. If a girl lets a man touch, hold hands or put his arm around her the Thais believe the girl is easy, lose or maybe a prostitute. If you look at the way girls act in the bars it is easy to understand that any traditional, well educated Thai girl would not want to be seen as such a person. Thailand is a class society and the girls working in the bars are part of the lower class. Any well-educated and successful Thai man knows this also and would not think of marring a girl of this status. Girls that work in bars are for having fun in the short term and that is as far as it goes. Both Thai men and women know this but for some strange reason many male visitors to Thailand just don’t get it.
I will get back to this subject later.

Meeting and Making Friends with a Thai Lady.

Many people who have met my wife and I ask where I found such a wonderful person, well it wasn’t easy. First of all you have to have time and lots of it. The best place to meet someone is where she works (not a bar). There are plenty of well-educated, nice traditional Thai girls working in restaurants, shopping malls, as tour guides and hotels. This is excellent as they have a product to sell you and you want to buy. This breaks the ice so you can have a conversation about something you both have in common. Be polite and look sharp (no t-shirt and shorts). If she is working in a restaurant order your food, or in a shop make a purchase and hang around a little while. Don’t ask any personal questions at this stage just small talk. If she is interested in you she will ask the questions for sure.

Now wait a day or so and then return. Tell her you were just passing by and wanted to stop and visit for a while. Engage in small talk again and answer her questions. Take your time and stick around a while. She now knows you are interested in her so the questions will start coming that are more personal. You can now ask a few small personal questions such as how many people in her family, where she is from, where she went to school etc, but not too many at this stage. When it is time to leave give her a nice big smile and look into her eyes as you walk away.

Return again in a day or two. Engage again in a little small talk then ask if she would like to enjoy a meal with you at her convenience and any place she chooses. She might say yes and she might say no. If she says no she wants to see if you will return again or just never come back. Don’t worry she will say yes sooner or later so just be patient.

The First Date

When she does say yes she will most probably ask if she can bring some friends along or persons in her family. This is a Thai tradition when first dating and nothing else. Many westerners do not understand this and think she just wants a free meal for her and her friends or family, not so.

Your date wants her friends and family to check you out and will ask what they think about you later when they are alone. This is kind of like a job interview in front of board members. Don't ask her family or friends any questions just let them ask you. You are the one being interviewed here. Also if you talk too much to her friends or another female in the family everyone will think you are flirting with them, not a good idea. Keep focused on your date.

Another thing you will be tested in is how you spend your money. This starts from the first date. If you ask her where she wants to eat more than likely she will choose an expensive restaurant. You reply should be to suggest a restaurant that is nice but a little cheaper. A simple restaurant is a no-no just as much as an expensive one is. Thais love shopping malls so eating at a Pizza Hut for lunch or dinner is fine (not a Sizzler Steak House). Thais are very thrifty when it comes to spending money, they know how to get the most for the Thai Baht and she is looking to see if you are the same. Suggest Pizza Hut for the “all you can eat night” as it is a very good bargain and she will take notice of this.

After the first date

Later on in dating you will probably want to purchase a gift for her. This will be another money test. One example is when I was dating my wife, before we got married, I noticed she needed a good watch. We went to the mall and a reputable watch dealer. Now I could of bought a very expensive one but here is what I did. I ask her which one she liked and of course she picked out a very expensive one (remember this is just a test). I then asked the clerk to see a much cheaper one, which she showed us. I told my date that the cheap watches were not any good. We then looked at medium price watches and she found one she liked and I made the purchase. Now here is the lesson in all this.

If a Thai girl convinces you to make an expensive purchase when it is not necessary she thinks you spend way too much money. If you make a cheap purchase she will think you are stingy. If you make the right purchase she will know you know how to spend your money wisely. She will never marry a man who throws money away or a man that has no money or is cheap.

Asking for money

Here is one trap most western men fall into and again this is just another test. My wife never did this but I was one step ahead of her so she didn’t have to. At some time in the courtship she will say something like “My parents need a new roof for their house as it leaks when it rains” or “We have no indoor plumbing in our house in the village can you help us” or maybe “My fathers motorbike broke down and he needs a new one”. Lets think about this one carefully. Ok, she now knows you might love her or at least like her a lot or you wouldn’t be spending this much time with her. Now she is performing the biggest test of all, seeing how stupid you are.

Most of the western men I know would give her the money because they want to help. This is the biggest mistake you can do. DO NOT give her any money for anything!!!
Your reply should be “Let’s go to your parents house and see what they need and maybe I can help”. This is not only wise but also what she wants to hear. She will have one of two replies. If her parents really don’t need the money she will just laugh and probably give you a hug and change the subject, no more said for now. Don’t bring up the subject again remember this is just a test. If they do need the money for the purposes she mentioned, she will say OK.

Now one of three things will happen. If she just wanted you for your money she will see you saw right through her objective and will avoid you. Another is she will take you to her parents house and you will see her parents don’t need anything from you and that this was just a test. Third you will visit her village and parents and she what they need so you can help them. Now this is very important and happens mainly with bar girls. If you just give her the money she asks for she will take it for sure. The only need is her greed and she will probably use the money for a party with her friends or pay a gambling dept. Not only that but she will keep asking for more as long as you keep giving it to her. You are now her cash cow and remember she didn’t take it from you. You were more than willing to give it to her. I hear many stories from western men who say, “this girl stoled my money”. No you were stupid enough to give it to her without checking to see if her stories were true. Remember these are tests to see if you are wise, thrifty, kind, considerate or just plain stupid. A traditional Thai girl would not take the money if she doesn't have a real need for the things she mentioned but just smile or laugh as I mentioned previously.

About the third date and beyond.

After she consults with her siblings and/or friends and they like you then she will go on to the next step. If they don’t like you, forget it. Thais won’t rely on their own feelings when it comes to getting serious with a potential mate. What their close personal relations say is most important when it comes to making decisions.

Again you are at a restaurant with her and probably a Thai restaurant but this time alone with her. You ask her to make the dinner choice of dishes for you and her. Once the plates arrive she will put the rice on your plate for you. Here is where you find out if she is serious about you and falling in love. She will take small portions from the serving plates and put it on your plate. She will fill up your water or beer glass when it gets low. She will keep doing this until the meal is over. She is trying to show that she wants to take care of you. Thai women are trained by their mother on how to take care of men and children. I don’t know why but every time I just think I am thirsty a glass of water appears. My wife even knows when I am getting hungry. It’s like she knows my every need just at the right time.

Getting Serious

One thing to remember is a Thai girl will almost NEVER tell you she loves you. She shows her love by taking care of you. Don’t for a moment think she doesn’t love you because she doesn’t say it. Actions are what counts here and words mean very little when it come to love and romance in Thai culture.

Thais also love to give and receive gifts. These gifts should be personal and something you or they truly need. If you want to give a gift shoes and handbags are their favorites.
Don’t go out and purchase expensive gifts. Tell her you need to go shopping for something for yourself and take her with you. After you make your purchase (shirt etc.) than ask her if she would like a pair of shoes or handbag then walk her to a store. Again you can purchase a nice pair of shoes for her for a couple hundred Thai baht, most nice shoes are under 300 baht and handbags under 400 Thai baht. Thai girls love shoes and handbags in a lot of different colors so don’t spend a lot of money on one item. She will need more in different colors in the future and a nice gift they all love.

Another gift men love to give which is not very important to Thai women except on special occasions are flowers. Many Thai girls feel this is not practical and a waste of money. If you do buy flowers make sure it is the right color. The wrong color can have a negative meaning. The two best colors are white and red. White means you miss or missed her, which is great to give when you haven’t seen her in a while. Red is telling her you love her and is good for Valentines Day, birthday or New Years. Yellow is in mourning so don’t give her those as yellow is for funerals.

The Engagement

Now you are both in Love and you are ready for ask for her hand in marriage. Take her to a nice restaurant for a Romantic dinner and just ask her, that’s all there is to it. Don’t purchase a ring or anything. If she says yes congratulations. Don’t worry about her parents and what they might say or want, as they already know all about you. They know their daughter loves you and she has already consulted with them and they gave their approval. The next step is to take her to a gold shop and purchase a nice necklace for her. Nothing to big and flashy but just something she likes. Let her make the choice but you keep it, don’t give it to her yet.

It is now time to go and ask her parents. You should take a well-respected Thai friend along (male) who can tell them about your good character. When you go take pictures of your family, your house and any other personal pictures that shows what your life is like back home. Then give the gold necklace to your future wife in front of them. Ask if you can marry her and say how much you love her and why. She will give the necklace to her mother who will have it blessed by a monk and return it to her. You are now engaged.

Now you can live together until the wedding. The wedding date will be set by first consulting a trusted Buddhist Monk or church pastor. Then the wedding plans can begin. You will have little or no say on how many people, where it will be held, how much it will cost or who to invite. Of course your family and close friends will be allowed to participate and attend.

In summary Thai Ladies are very smart and not the innocent little creatures western men make them out to be. If you do it the Thai way, slowly, smartly, and kindly you can have a wonderful partner for life as I have. If not you will pay the price for sure, mentally and financially.

I hope this helps in understanding the Thai way of romance. Remember things are done much differently in their culture and they are not going to do it any other way, trust me.

Randy and Ning

Peter4

That might be an interesting post ... for men looking for courtship leading to marriage.
But the thread topic is "First BKK trip" and the OP is a married man traveling with his wife.

Western men coming here -- with wives or without -- will be approached by Thai women, in very subtle and indirect ways.
Men on their first trip here are unlikely to be aware of the methods and motives of Thai women.
So, advice for first-time men, about Thai women approaching them, is certainly in order.
And that has already been well-covered on this thread.

But one aspect which has not yet been mentioned, is advice for men who are traveling with their wives (Western women, not Thai wives).
Those men, on their first trip, should be aware that your wife's behavior may change once you arrive in Thailand!

I live in a tourist area of Bangkok, so I see this behavior every day.
A few examples of what you might expect on a first BKK trip, with a Western wife:

• Wife holding husband's hand in a grip of steel.
  I am certain wife never does this back home where holding a man's hand has become verboten.
  And what I observe here is not a soft, gentle, romantic, twining of fingers.
  Instead, it is a desperate, rigid, grasp, accompanied by the wife's grim, jaw-set, face.
  .
• Wife wears low-cut, revealing, tight, tops.
  Not even during maximum summer heat and humidity in cities back home, did I ever see so much Caucasian cleavage as can be seen among tourist wives in Bangkok.
  .
• Wife suddenly needs to look at something far away when an especially pretty Thai girl appears nearby.
  The body language of wife dragging husband away -- like a naughty dog on a short leash -- is hilarious.
  Even my Thai friends get many laughs from this particular antic of Western wives.

At the hotel where I live, I sometimes talk with other Western men at the pool or the gym.
Since I obviously know my way around the facilities, some men start a conversation with me, as men might do in any gym or at poolside.
They ask for advice about restaurants and shows and things to do and see besides tagging along on their wife's shopping trips.
If the wife appears during our conversation, the atmosphere turns frosty indeed.
As soon as the wife learns that I live in Bangkok, and presumably that I know my way around the city, she insists, "We have to go now, dear," and drags the forlorn husband off to the room, or shopping, or somewhere.
I observe it again and again.
(This applies only to Western wives. Thai wives are very different.)

So, for men who are coming to Bangkok for the first time (thread topic), here is some advice:

1. You will be surprised at how differently you are treated by Thai women, compared to what you are used to from women at home.
   .
2. If you are traveling here with your wife (Western woman), her behavior, also, may be surprisingly different than how she normally acts at home.

-- Peter

SaigonCyclo

Sounds like you were taken advantage of by a Thai lady, Peter. Is that why you are so anti-Thai?

I lived in BKK for over a year with my wife. She never exhibited any of the traits you mention below.