Tchiowa

I know a number of people working rotational jobs around the world who come to Thailand once every other month for several weeks. As you say, they aren't working. When I first started coming to Thailand that's exactly what I was doing.

It happens every few years. But this is the first time I recall this happening during a coup. Prayuth is saying he is serious about the changes he's making. Maybe this will last a bit longer this time.

mcgahat

Well said. I never really understood this whole process where people just cross the border by bus then come back to avoid getting a proper visa. If they are really providing financial support to the system then they should be able to have the resources to do it the right way. I honestly have no sympathy for anyone caught short in this process.

Dr. HFH

What a dope I am. Yes, of course!! Presumably they'll be looking at repeat entry permit users as opposed to one time visitors.

dsquared37

And what about someone who lives in a proximal country and spends a weekend or two every month or so enjoying what Thailand has to offer?

there are gray lines and with no stated/published guidelines anything goes... or nothing goes, depending upon which side of the immi booth you sit.

forumpersona999

The other problem besides English teachers that I can see is Scuba instructors.

Koh Tao would be dead if they would kick our every Scuba instructor who is doing visa runs.

The system needs a re-vamp. English teachers (with proper credentials) and Scuba Instructors are examples that come to mind.

These are specialist roles that a local Thai person probably cannot fulfill. So why make it virtually impossible to get a work permit?

Tax these people and let them work!To avoid tax evasion you can do something Singapore style and say the work permit requires proof of income tax payments above a certain threshold. Done.

The average PADI dive shop on Koh Tao or in Khao Lak simply won't have the required registered capital and ratio of Thai vs. foreign workers to service all the TOURISTS who come and SPEND MONEY in Thailand during High Season and give Thailand a great reputation as a scuba diving destination.

PADI frequently feature the Similans (Where they charge foreigners a huge tiered national parks fee to be allowed to dive there) and Koh Tao as bucket list scuba destinations. Having been there and had a look around, there is always nobody with a work permit. It's usually the store manager and his/her deputy. The 12 other people (Korean/Japanese/German/French/Spanish speaking Scuba instructors) who work for them are all on visa runs.

Kick them out and you lose all those tourist dollars. The whole system needs an overhaul...

Tchiowa

I think the focus is not on people spending a lot of time here, but rather on people working here illegally. And the dive instructors may be part of that.

One of the issues with work permits is that a company getting a permit for a foreigner must show that there are no locals that are competent to do the job. And certain jobs are restricted to Thai only (tour guides come to mind).

But the biggest hit may be because of the minimum wage. There is a variable minimum wage based on the country of origin of the foreign worker. For Europeans and Americans seems like it's something like 50k THB/Month.

Having said that, I can tell you from years of holding a proper work permit, if you meet the qualifications they are quite easy to get.

aBroadAbroad

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seanthepilot

The people who come from the visa exempt countries, are not staying more than 30 days at a time, and are not working ARE doing it the right way.

How can people say that they have no sympathy, when these people are already following the rules?


bilateral agreements like these:

http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/ne...a/index_en.htm

which describes New Zealand and the European Unions terms, or...

http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/comin...ree_travel.htm

describing visa free travel to Denmark by passport holders of several countries, or even...

http://konzuliszolgalat.kormany.hu/v...ver-agreements

which points out Hungary's agreements with many countries, including Thailand.

Now if Thai's can enter Hungary for 90 days and Hungarians can enter Thailand for 90 days without a visa. What happens when a Hungarian national is then denied entry at a Thai border for having several visa exempt entries in a row? Is Thailand now in contravention of this bilateral agreement?

What then happens when an American, a Chilean, Japanese, or a Brit are denied? Will all of Thai's bilateral agreements fall?

According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Thai passport holders can enter 22 countries without needing a visa. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/contents/f...410-171241.pdf
Will all of these agreements be in jeopardy of collapse if their nationals are denied entry into Thailand?


If you come from one of the 48 countries that Thailand allows an entry without a visa, nothing should change. In this case, the travellers are already following the rules.

Diplomatico

You cannot possibly be serious. While superficially that may be the case, do you really think the intent of the 30 day visa exemption FOR TOURISTS was to allow people to live in country for 5/10/15 years at a time simply by making border runs? Absurd. No, it was created for tourism. Multi-year residents making visa runs monthly are not tourists.

Thailand hasn't been vigilant about policing things but that's changed. If one wants to live here on a permanent or semi-permanent basis then one should get the appropriate visa.

IamHungry

Just because you can enter Thailand with or without a visa does not mean you can REALLY enter the country. It is up to the immigration officer. It's their job to screen out the suspicious ones.

US, Canada, Schengen area deport many Thai citizen with valid tourist visa all the time. If they suspect that they will enter the country not solely for tourism.

Hell, even South Korea and Japan do the same thing to Thai citizen. And Thais do not need visa to enter both of those countries.

forumpersona999

These agreements usually come with fine-print that says customs officials at the border have the final say.

I am quite sure that a Thai going to Hungary back to back for 89 days at a time will be questioned very thoroughly after a few attempts as are Thais who go into Singapore as tourists all the time, back to back.

Their motives will be questioned, they will go into a supervisor's office for questioning and the onus of proof that they are a bona fide tourist who has the means to support themselves is on the traveler.

Thailand and Singapore are not suing each other in international courts or abandoning their agreement because some 19 year old katoey on an Air Asia flight with nothing more than a carry-on full of lingerie is being refused visa-free entry into Singapore on their 3rd entry this year.

forumpersona999

+1.

The only conspiracy theory I can come up with is that they want to crackdown now to kick-start their new and improved "Thailand Elite" visa scheme.

Previously it was hard for a self-funded person (i.e. not looking to work in Thailand) who is too young for a retirement visa to stay "indefinitely".

So they came up with this old Thaksin scheme that they call Thailand Elite. It kept failing due to mis-management and they are now re-launching it for the millionth time. And just then they crack down on overstayers. Hmm.

You can buy a condo from an approved developer and for an extra 1M Baht you can stay in Thailand for 20 years back-back with annual renewals.

Or you can get it outright for 500k Baht for a 5 year term. So let's call it 100k baht a year to be left alone.

mcgahat

Perfectly said.

Tchiowa

I agree with you. Those who try to "live" in Thailand by making constant visa runs may be within the law but they certainly aren't within the intent. They are exploiting a loophole.

There is a way to deal with it. I've been to several countries that have a policy that if you are in the country more than 180 days in a year you are considered a resident *for tax purposes*. You are then taxed on your assumed income world wide based on assumptions about your nationality. Next visa run entry you are required to pay any theoretical past due tax. Sometimes in the thousands of dollars.

For example a retirement visa in Thailand requires that you have about $2,500/month income or a deposit to prove that much cash. So they could take a tax of 15% which would be $375/month. If you've been on 6 months of visa runs when the rule kicked back in that would be $2,250 in back taxes to get back in the country and from then on continuous tax when you do visa runs.

Kind of draconian, but as I said, I have seen this in other countries and it works.

Of course if you're a rotational worker spending 6 months a year in Thailand you wouldn't hit the threshhold.

seanthepilot

That is the intent, but the current crackdown targets both, the people spending a lot of time here are certainly affected negatively although shouldn't be. Most long term foreigners aren't working.

Agree that the dive instructors will, and should be hit hard. As should schools that do not get the appropriate visas for their staff.

There is no minimum wage for a visa or for a work permit. But if the wage isn't at or above the scale that you mention, you cannot get your visa extended within the country (annual extension). Low wage workers can still get a visa and a work permit. But when their visa expires, they must visit an embassy and apply for a new visa. And the cycle starts again.

I am serious. And I doubt that many people staying 5/10/15 years are making 30 day border runs. Do you really think this is the case?

A typical long stay resident will do a VISA run every 6 months, getting a double tourist visa, extending each stay at immigration, and doing a BORDER RUN (or flying home) before the first 90 days.

Many more, like myself, live on Non-Immigrant visas. I have qualified for and have gotten annual extensions in the past. In the past 2 years, I have entered more than twice on a 30 days stamp and have 2 double entry tourist visas. My current visa is good until early next year, but I am getting my annual extension next week.

If you're over 50 years old or if you are married to a Thai you can get a visa. But, if you're not married or under 50 (or over 50 and don't have the financial paper trail), there are few choices of visas that fit.

Still others are retired, or married to a Thai, but cannot manage all the requirements for the visa. The paperwork for an extension based on marriage is quite daunting and confusing. It can be difficult to comply with depending on circumstances.
Many others (such as, but not limited to Flyertalkers) live in Thailand as their permanent base, and fly in and out regularly, never needing more than a 30 day stamp.

Here, in Phuket, foreigners spend 6 or more months a year here. Many young kids come and spend a year or two (French and Italian's come to mind).

The problem is that there isn't a visa that fits many of the foreigners here. There aren't tourists. They're not working. They don't qualify for traditional visas. Hence the Thai answer to the problem.... called the "Zig Zag" and the other popular strategy... ignoring the problem while it grows and grows.


Agree. This is my point exactly.

If they had this approach in this crackdown, one could simply get a visa or enter on a visa waiver/30 day stamp, take the interview, show their ability to support themselves, or whatever the case may be, and then either be approved or not to enter based on circumstance.

But, what we have here is just the opposite. It is rumored that any amount of multiple entries without a Non-Immigrant visa will be automatically declined. I mean really, how long do you think that will last?