nlp

Agreement to use northern polar route may end years of bickering

Thailand and the US are inching toward a final air traffic agreement after calling off informal talks last month amid signs of more willingness on both sides for further aviation deregulation, according to Thailand's top transport official.

According to Srisook Chandrangsu, permanent secretary of the Transport and Communications Ministry, there is a better chance that a final air traffic pact will be reached now that several rounds of informal talks have paved the way for a broad agreement on common ground.

Formal negotiations will be held in Washington DC in August, he added.

Thailand and the US have been locked in conflict over the commercial aviation agreement after Thailand, almost a decade ago, scrapped the previous agreement struck after World War Two. Through informal processes during the past five years, the atmosphere for official talks appears to have improved, said Srisook.

Srisook said that the new aviation pact is aimed at easing limitations among the two countries in response to changes in the aviation industry.

Thailand and the US are now operating under a temporary flight permission after a five-year contract expired two years ago.

The US carriers are allowed to fly a combined 37 passenger flights a week and 24 cargo flights a week, with a constraint on the fifth freedom right.

For years the US has been playing an active role in urging Asian countries to open up their commercial aviation markets to boost air traffic services in the region. However, some countries have remained reluctant to go for an open-sky policy for fears of hurting their national flag carriers.

During the informal discussion, Thailand has agreed with the US's proposal to use this country as its Asian cargo hub while Chicago will be the cargo hub for the US market.

Thailand has proposed to open a non-stop flight service from Bangkok to Chicago, which will take only 16.5 hours through the new northern route. This will be more convenient for passengers who can then transit their flights to other cities in the US.

Srisook said the new route, or the so-called "Polar Route", will pass over northern China, Mongolia the North Pole and Canada to the US. This new route - as opposed to eastern route via Japan and across the Pacific to the US -- will help save energy costs because the aircraft will not fly against the wind. "It's more reasonable to use Chicago as the main destination for the transit of both passenger and cargo flights because the US has already developed the city as its hub," said Srisook.

Srisook acknowledged that with the planned new aviation agreement, Thai Airways International will have to change the utilisation of its aircraft as the agreement would result in more non-stop long haul flights.

Currently, Thai Airways services the US from Bangkok via Japan, Korea and Taiwan to Los Angeles.

Usanee Mongkolporn

THE NATION

TravelinWilly

Intersting news! Thank you!

I'll fly it. Though (on a bitter note) ONLY if TG puts the new sleepers on it...

Will

UAL Traveler

I think that if an agreement is struck, it will undoubtedly be accompanied by the planned J/F service upgrades. I think that the launch of new nonstop BKK-ORD service would be the ideal time to roll out a 'new and improved TG.'

Note that although the article did not mention UA by name, the choice of ORD is not coincidental, as I know that UA has taken the lead among US airlines in working with the Thais for more slots and a permanent agreement (see related posting in UA forum).

[This message has been edited by UAL Traveler (edited 06-24-2001).]

nlp

I don't think TG can fly that route with any of its existing aircrafts. BKK-ORD(7451nm) is even longer than JNB-ATL(7326nm). It will probably buy some longer range 777-200 or A340-500 or at least A340-200.

UAL Traveler

nlp, TG has been negotiating to use ULN (Ulan Bator, Mongolia) as a standby refueling stop based on winds/loads/weather diversions. However, bear in mind that the rated range for the aircraft is based on an MTOW (max takeoff weight) departure. A decrease in weight (less pax/cargo) will extend the range, and provide for adequate IFR alternate airport capabilities should the destination airport become unavailable.

nlp

I see. You mean they want to use 744? Anyway I don't like the idea. They should use the aircraft that has a less chance to refuel in Mongolia. If it happens, how much will it delay the flight?

UAL Traveler

nlp, IMHO it is not a bad strategy. In my years of transpacs on marginal (i.e. long) routes, I've been on flights that have had to stop to refuel (e.g. Beijing on UA1). The likelihood of an unscheduled stop is very low, but having the contingency in place makes the operation quite safe and reliable. Delays in arrivals (relative to the projected arrival time for a particular flight without the stop) are usually less than two hours, often less than 90 minutes.

Always Flyin

What aircraft might that be? At present, the 744 has the longest range (no, the Airbus 340 does not). For now, it's basically the 744 or nothing (unless you don't want to carry any cargo or passengers).

When the A340-500 and Longer Range 777-200 come out in the next year and a half or so, they will be able to fly non-stop from BKK to LAX (which is actually further than ORD).

nlp

Are you sure that BKK-LAX is further than BKK-ORD?

Always Flyin

Ah, c'mon! You're not really going to ask me to look this up are you? Can't you just trust me on this? No? Ok then...

I understand it is counter-intuitive, but it has to do with the polar routes and authorized routings for airlines. If you looked on a round globe, it would be easier to picture. BKK-ORD basically goes straight over the pole. BKK-LAX doens't, and countries in the way require certain routings, which increase the distance.

So while the direct circle routing is shorter to LAX is a little less, the actual ATC routings is more, and since it is not over the pole, winds are much more of an issue westbound.

The result is that BKK-ORD is easier to do with current aircraft than BKK-LAX.

UAL Traveler

Well.... actually the great-circle distances are:
LAX(33°56'33"N 118°24'29"W) to BKK (13°32'N 100°22'E) 8293 mi
BKK (13°32'N 100°22'E) ORD (41°58'47"N 87°54'16"W) 8574 mi
as obtained from Great Circle Mapper. Here are the 180- and 207-minute ETOPS regions superposed (and a more conventional viewpoint for the routes).

Kaoru Kanetaka

Well, gentlemen, let's just hope this new route will instigate TG to upgrade their F and J cabins which IMHO are in immediate needs of the major overhaul. Its pathetic that after introducing fully-flat First class cabin just two years ago, only a handful of 744s have been converted. I love TG's food, service and not-always full F cabin as SQ and CX.... so its about time, TG!

Always Flyin

My understanding is that the TG 744s with lay flat seats are not retrofits. They are just the newest 744s in the fleet, which were delivered from Boeing with the lay flat seats installed.

TG simply hasn't had the money (and/or the desire) to retrofit the remainder of the fleet.

UAL Traveler

How true. See the headlining story in today's The Nation about THAI AIRWAYS: Service upgrade gets axe, and doc's threadby the same name. Hard to believe that the transportation minister said that TG's first class is only equivalent to the competition's econ-class.



[This message has been edited by UAL Traveler (edited 06-28-2001).]

TravelinWilly

Not to split hairs, but the new 1st product was introduced over 3 years ago, not 2. My point is not to correct you, but highlight the inconsistencies in the product. For 3 years passengers have to hope and pray that they get the "good" plane. For a few months, they were used on the BKK-LAX-BKK routes that departed BKK in the afternoon and departed LAX in the evening and went through KIX. When the flights reverted to leaving earlier in the day, TG redeployed the crappy old planes on this route. I'm a TG fan, and I really hope they work out their "issues."

There are ways to calculate which plane flies when (Carfield is an expert on this), but who wants the headache?

The new 1st seats, while not suites, are MORE than acceptable, and are fully flat. I'll take those (with the TG service) over UA's 1st any day.

Will