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TG heading for "Chapter 11" Refund a dream now ??

TG heading for "Chapter 11" Refund a dream now ??

Old May 19, 20, 12:50 am
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TG heading for "Chapter 11" Refund a dream now ??

What do the Thai media say ?
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Old May 19, 20, 3:45 am
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i am also waiting for a refund, since 6 weeks. I think we have just become unsecured creditors at the back of the queue!
The whole situation is very odd. Obviously the company does need a radical restructuring, but the messaging (in Thai media) from Govt and the company, ie that this can be handled in a smooth and comparatively painless way, (with the help of the bankruptcy court) has to be just nonsense.
There is going to be some pain shared around, including for customers.
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Old May 19, 20, 4:03 am
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"Thai Airways saved from the brink by government"

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52718464
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Old May 19, 20, 4:07 am
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The title is a bit click-baity, perhaps a moderator can change it.
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Old May 19, 20, 4:18 am
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Website announcement:
19 May 2020

THAI operates as usual while implementing reform plan under law.

Today (19 May 2020) - Mr. Chakkrit Parapuntakul, Second Vice Chairman and Acting President, Thai Airways International Public Company Limited (THAI), said the Thai Cabinet approved the reform plan for THAI which will be implemented through the business reorganization chapter under the auspices of the Central Bankruptcy Court of Thailand and the Bankruptcy Act. In the meantime, THAI is able to operate flights and run its business as usual.

Although THAIís reform plan will be implemented and exercised through the business reorganization chapter under the bankruptcy law, THAI will not be dissolved or go into liquidation or to be declared bankrupt. On the contrary, the business reorganization chapter will enable THAI to reach its reform planís objectives even more effectively step by step as required by the law which provides equitable protection to all relevant stakeholders while THAI will be able to conduct its normal business operations including passenger and cargo transportation. The business will be conducted in parallel with the reform plan to increase operational efficiency and improve product and service quality.

THAI is committed to do everything possible to emerge from the crisis situation. This is an important step for THAI to change in order to become a stronger and more sustainable entity. THAI expressed its gratitude to all concerned in every sector of the economy, shareholders, partners, alliance, customers and in particular all THAI passengers for their continued support and confidence in the airline. THAI will resume full operations once the Covid-19 situation subsides.

THAI air tickets are still valid for travel and passengers holding those tickets are advised to contact THAI via website thaiairways.com or THAI contact Center at Tel: 02-3561111.
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Old May 19, 20, 4:20 am
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Originally Posted by 11277m View Post
"Thai Airways saved from the brink by government"

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52718464
I think there is an issue with semantics here.
Of course the company is bankrupt, it cannot service its obligations,!
so it will go through some form of court ordained procedure, in order to restructure these obligations; ie bankruptcy
I think what the headline should have said was that the company was saved from immediate liquidation. ie where the creditors take control and grab what they can!
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Old May 19, 20, 6:48 am
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I think the purpose of the bankruptcy protection was to reduce fleet, employee as well as other commitments, such as from finance companies and banks. The primary purpose is not to liquidate the airline.

I would assume they will keep their obligations to customers (i.e. existing tickets and refunds) in order to keep goodwill for continuation of airlines operation.

So no, I doubt you will have to join the long list of unsecured creditors.
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Old May 19, 20, 6:53 am
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Originally Posted by ohsopc View Post
I think the purpose of the bankruptcy protection was to reduce fleet, employee as well as other commitments, such as from finance companies and banks. The primary purpose is not to liquidate the airline.

I would assume they will keep their obligations to customers (i.e. existing tickets and refunds) in order to keep goodwill for continuation of airlines operation.

So no, I doubt you will have to join the long list of unsecured creditors.
Existing tickets, yes. Without that there is no value in Chapter 11. Refunds, do not be so sure. If there were enough cash to operate the carrier under existing obligations, there would be no need for administration. But, there is not enough cash and therefore something has to give. In an orderly manner (that is what Chapter 11 is all about).

However, it comes down to paying for fuel, making lease payments, and paying employees vs. making refunds.

For those who used a credit card issued in a country which provides bankruptcy protection, e.g. the US and UK as well as several others, there is nothing to worry about. If a refund becomes due and the carrier is unable to make the refund, the card issuer is responsible and the consumer receives his money. Others may have "all perils" travel coverage which will reimburse losses.
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Old May 19, 20, 7:11 am
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The questions arises for refunds for tickets starting in the EU/CH/UK/EEA.
EC261/2004 stipulates that the carrier must issue a cash refund if requested by the passenger.
A passenger may receive a court enforcement title through a EU/CH/UK/EEA court. The bailiff does not have to conduct research into Thai bankcruptcy law. Hence, any assets of Thai within the EU/CH/UK/EEA may still be seized to satisfy refund claims, that could include credit card/acquirer accounts in EU/CH/UK/EEA that Thai owns in in order to receive payments. Moreover, Thai claims against OTA/TAs can be seized, as well.
This could become ugly, because they must be 10,000s of passengers with EU/CH/UK/EEA-departing tickets, which were cancelled by Thai. A credit card/acquirer account that is frozen due to a court order is basically cutting Thai off from cash income from the EU/CH/UK/EEA.
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Old May 19, 20, 7:18 am
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Originally Posted by ohsopc View Post
I think the purpose of the bankruptcy protection was to reduce fleet, employee as well as other commitments, such as from finance companies and banks. The primary purpose is not to liquidate the airline.

I would assume they will keep their obligations to customers (i.e. existing tickets and refunds) in order to keep goodwill for continuation of airlines operation.

So no, I doubt you will have to join the long list of unsecured creditors.
i believe you are right , in a way, they might do this , for business reasons.
However (and this depends on the court ruling) it is likely that those of us awaiting refunds will be treated as unsecured creditors, that is the clear legal precedent for this situation .
We may get differential treatment if the court rules that it is in the interests of the ongoing business.
All of this is dependent on how bad the situation is financially for the company.
Edit- I note the post from K Warakorn above; there is other recourse for international purchasers of TG tickets, and i am sure this will be for consideration during the THAI bankruptcy hearings. I was posting as a Thai based purchaser of a TG ticket on a Thai credit card.
I am sorry to say, but my understanding (from the sources i have) ,is that the financial situation of the company is perilous , to say the least.

Last edited by wordchild; May 19, 20 at 7:30 am
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Old May 19, 20, 8:09 am
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Originally Posted by warakorn View Post
The questions arises for refunds for tickets starting in the EU/CH/UK/EEA.
EC261/2004 stipulates that the carrier must issue a cash refund if requested by the passenger.
A passenger may receive a court enforcement title through a EU/CH/UK/EEA court. The bailiff does not have to conduct research into Thai bankcruptcy law. Hence, any assets of Thai within the EU/CH/UK/EEA may still be seized to satisfy refund claims, that could include credit card/acquirer accounts in EU/CH/UK/EEA that Thai owns in in order to receive payments. Moreover, Thai claims against OTA/TAs can be seized, as well.
This could become ugly, because they must be 10,000s of passengers with EU/CH/UK/EEA-departing tickets, which were cancelled by Thai. A credit card/acquirer account that is frozen due to a court order is basically cutting Thai off from cash income from the EU/CH/UK/EEA.
This is not a new issue and it has been dealt with many times. You are simply wrong, although you have raised it before.

If sued, TG will simply file a notice that it is in administration. EC 261/2004 very much applies, but one is an unsecured creditor and the Regulation does not act to circumvent bankruptcy.

Indeed, there are many courts where it is considered contempt to file an action against an entity which one knows to be in administration without notifying the court.

You may also be assured that if local officials started to seize assets, there would be immediate action by the administrator as her job is to administer assets according to bankruptcy law and not to favor one person over another,.
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Old May 19, 20, 10:39 am
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Indeed, in most European jurisdictions any action against TG will be stayed if TG demonstrates that it is in administration/under bankruptcy protection. That is the whole point of seeking bankruptcy protection.
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Old May 19, 20, 7:03 pm
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Originally Posted by LondonElite View Post
The title is a bit click-baity, perhaps a moderator can change it.
Could you clearly explain what is your issue ?
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Old May 19, 20, 11:14 pm
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The major creditors are said to be Krungthai Bank (KTB), and Government Savings Bank (GSB). Both are State-owned.

Unsecured loans are held by a huge network of Thai provincial and regional Savings Cooperatives (the local Thai version of a Credit Union, but maybe a bit more un-regulated). Suspect these folks will be lucky to get 5 satang on the baht?

It may be a long, ugly death-march.

Last edited by transpac; May 21, 20 at 6:00 pm
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Old May 21, 20, 11:16 am
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35% of debt is held by US entities, hence the need to file in the USA as well. The US regulations requires full disclosure and a lot of dirty laundry is going to come out.
Watch what the creditors like Airbus do.It won't be pretty.
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