Stranger

So my wife and I had P fare AC-issued tckets with slightly different itineraries, with first leg LIS-LHR on TP, but booked in Y. Which we had upgraded using SAUA upgrades, using her milles. Then on to YYZ on AC. There seemed to be issues with our tickets unrelated to TP and we could not check in online. So when arriving from AGP on separate tickets the previous day we went to departure check in to make sure everything was OK and get boarding passes, which we got.

At the gate, when boarding, they give my wife a new boarding pass, in Y, "we needed the seat and this was an award so we downgraded you." While I kept my business class seat. (Why her, not me? Possibly because she uses her Chinese name and she potentially looked like an easier target?) But I said no, we fly together in business, please solve this for us. We don't take this flight until you resolve the issue. "There is nothing we can do." "That's your problem not ours, please call a supervisor or someone who can deal with the issue." Which eventually they did.

Then of course that person tried the usual BS, "you know, look at the weather, you know, blah, blah, the holy ghost, whatever." Which I cut, she would complain that I did not let her speak, unwillingly to believe her BS was pointless and actually offensive. Sure, she was just doing her job, what she is supposed to do, ultimately it was not her but the airline which was offensive. Anyway, she finally bit the bullet and recognized she would have to rebook us in business. Eventually came back offering a 16:05 departure instead of the consistently delayed 9:45 flight. Still hoping we would relent since obviously we would miss our connections. But I said OK. Claimed we would have to deal with AC about these, but they may actually have dealt with mine while messing up my wife's.

Also claimed they would remove my wife's checked luggage and that we would need to pick it up at LHR which was what we wanted anyway. But they did not and we did not get it there. In hindsight we should have insisted to get our luggage back, making sure we would have it, and with the added benefit that their flight would be further delayed. :-) Anyway, the luggage went to AC at LHR overnight. (And actually stayed there, hopefully arriving in YYC later today...)

End result: we were both delayed quite a bit beyond UE compensation guidelines so we'll do our best to get as much as we can from them...

TPJ

You really decided to wait from 9.45 to 16.05 to get a C-class seat on a 2 hour flight?

Many airlines (including QR - just visit the QR forum) have a policy to downgrade these on awards first. You are than still eligible for compensation. There is an Altea algorithm that determines upgrade/downgrade order (there is a thread on LH forum). I am not sure if TP uses this algorithm, but they are on Altea, so quire likely. As you were on different PNR's so that had no clue you travel together.

But as you voluntarily moved yourself to a later flight you are now (IMHO) not eligible for EU compensation.

IAN-UK

I think you cut your nose off there. You forced a change in scheduled itinerary, whereas the airline was attempting to preserve it.

So while you would have been able to claim compensation for a downgrade, you're in a very shaky position claiming compo for delay. After all, you insisted on maintaining class of travel at the expense of a lengthening your trip by a significant number of hours.

Downgrades are never pleasant: TAP could probably have handled it better, might have offered some sweetner. But, well, that's TP.


With hindsight, you might agree that giving up your Y seat to your wife, and reaching home on time, might have been a wiser strategy.



oops! just seen TPJ came to much the same conclusion. Great minds etc etc

Stranger

1. In this instance it actually made little difference to us. I was arriving at destination very early one day ahead, getting there late afternoon did not bother me. Similar story for my wife. So while it is true that it was actually no big deal, it was the right opportunity not to get an airline to get away with inappropriate practices. Plus, there was not even a word of apology from the date agent, just "here is your now BP. You are now in economy."

2. That it may be policy does not make it right. Confirmed is supposed to be confirmed, otherwise it is for the airline to provide an alternative acceptable to us. As to compensation, would have probably be minimal.

3. One has to stand for principles. No matter that "many airlines do it," it's still wrong and a violation of the contract.

4. Our PNRs were cross-referenced.

5. We did not "voluntarily" move to another flight. We were very willing to stay on that flight as per our confirmed itinerary and in the confirmed class of service. The airline moved us to another flight because they were unwilling to provide the contractually agreed service.

Often1

Without clear evidence that TP discriminated against your wife as the result of her national origin or ethnicity, it is merely poor form to do so on FT. In your dealings with TP it is inadviseable in the extreme. If your claim is not sustained, then you will be properly ignored. Indeed, you yourself report the reason for the downgrade and that is TP following its own procedures (which are roughly the same across most carriers).

The bottom line is that pursuant to the contract your wife agreed to with TP, it may downgrade her and refund her 30% of the cost of her ticket for the segment downgraded. That is all she was entitled to. You are not entitled to anything (presumably you would have spoken with the cabin crew and arranged for her to sit in your J seat). Indeed TP went out of its way to rebook both of you, which is not required either by contract or EC 261/2004.

She is not entitled to a downgrade refund (it is not "compensation" but a refund) because she was not downgraded. She is not entitled to delay compensation because this was a voluntary reroute and because she was apparently ticketed onwards to YYZ. If she was not delayed at YYZ, her arrival into and departure from LHR are irrelevant. You are entitled to nothing as TP did not seek to downgrade you and did not involuntarily reroute you, nor were you delayed into YYZ.

Rather than complaining about what you believe your wife's ticket entitled her to, it is better to read the contract she agreed to before purchase and then understand that she got more than she was entitled to. You got a lot more.

Finally, consider that if, for whatever reason, the J "cabin" was overbooked and then oversold at the gate, some passenger was going to be downgraded. TP chose the passenger traveling on the award ticket, presumably to avoid exactly the sorts of allegations you have insinuated and because somebody has to have a priority and it was not the award ticket.

Stranger

I never used the word discrimination and I would not use in tjis context. As to mentioning this in a complaint, I never planned to and it would be immaterial in any event.

Even if that sort of wording is in tariffs or CoC, it would remain a violation of contract law though, since that sort of clause makes a contract no longer binding on both parties. Wording surely is that they can offer a downgrade with refund but I cannot see that one would be forced to accept, vs. rebooking. Similarly to cancellation and refund in cases of IRROPS and no good option is found. Ticket was issued on 014 stock BTW so I assume the AC tariffs apply?

We were both significantly delayed. More than 6 hours.


That misses the point, and BTW we both were on SAUA awards.

Most airlines I am familiar with do not normally overbook the business cabin. Either when we were issued our original boarding passes the previous day the cabin was already overbooked, in which case the reasonable thing would have been to deal with the issue right away. Or overbooking occurred in the meantime, which should not have happened, with some possible exceptions related to operational issues at least on some airlines. But even then, giving you a downgraded BP at the last minute and with no explanation is not good.

Often1

1. Of course it is a valid contract. It specifies liquidated damages, e.g. a 30% refund if TP can't perform as agreed. Moreover, downgrades are expressly contemplated by EU law as the 30% refund referred to above happens to be included in the TP contract, but even if it were not, is clearly covered by EC 261/2004. You should review that before making your assertion about the issue.

2. Many carriers overbook J and sometimes it is even oversold. Sometimes it is purposeful, sometimes inadverdent, and sometimes as simple as an inop seat.

3. You were not delayed at YYZ by more than 4 hours unless that flight was also delayed. As you were, by your reporting, connecting, it is you arrival time at YYZ that matters. In any event, that is simply icing on the cake as you made a voluntary change to your ticket which TP was decent enough to do when it could simply have handed your wide a Y boarding pass and told her that she could board or lose her ticket at her option. There is no rebooking right under downgrades.

Norcanair

What word would you use, then?

From this thread and your other one about the agent with a cold, I get that your experience with TP was frustrating. But we should be judicious about such speculations, even if couched in parentheses and qualified with “possibly” and “potentially.” Because the implication of discrimination is there. And I say all this as a minority.

sol95

umm...isn't LIS-LHR C on TP a Y seat with the middle seat blocked (as with pretty much ALL European airlines)? you deliberately went to all that trouble to get an in-name-C seat that's no different to the back of the plane???

Stranger

You may be right. I'll check.

We were delayed both at YYZ and at our final destination by more than six hours.