Of course, yes, we're unwelcoming, that's it. You don't think it could be in some small part because this forum is tucked away down the FT dial, one of 150 or so that is available to newcomers, do you?

I don't forget that I was a newbie once as well. And honestly, I'm still learning on FlyerTalk every day. I disagree that new members don't feel welcome to post - I see new members posting all the time. Sometimes it takes folks a little longer than others to get to a point where they feel comfortable...

This thread is about a low fare request forum - and I just don't think that FlyerTalk is a travel agency, nor should it be.

In some small part, sure. However, this thread was announced in the MR Discussions forum. But there is more behind my confidence. I know a few people who feel they were shooed out of here with "we are not a travel agency" and help one another in a group out of FT. I tried to persuade them to join this thread but that drew a big yawn; they don't feel part of the place and don't think it is worth the trouble. Some of the arguments I have put forth were lifted from their emails.

In particular, one wrote, "We didn't force anyone to answer our questions. Even if not a single person cared, which is unlikely, we could have simply helped one another. Like we are doing now. However, it would have been difficult to do so if we are being attacked, posts are being deleted and threads being closed."

That's about it. The proposed forum will be a place where like-minded people can help themselves even if nobody else does.

As you point out, "this thread is about a low fare request forum". My statements were in that context. I think it is fair to say that anyone requesting help with fare research gets the Abu Gharib treatment.

Sure, I won't ask you to book my cruise, Fedex the tickets to me, arrange for my visa, and change my return date, etc. That's what travel agencies do.

FT is not a photography store, but we discuss cameras and prices. FT is not a luggage store, but we discuss luggage and prices. What's the big deal about discussing airfares then, which too are a part of travel?

I see; the supposed majority who want such a forum couldn't be bothered to voice those opinions here citing feelings of disenfranchisement. When given the chance to make their opinions heard to the FT powers-that-be, they yawned. You'll have noted by now that that opinions are one thing I'm never short of and while it often wrankles some I would rather risk ruffling a few feathers than not to have shared it and look back later and wished I had.

I hadn't been closely following the whole debate within the MR Discussions forum but noted yours were several of the threads closed so can guess you have a direct interest in such a forum. I also noted what I thought was a reasoned response a Mod. passed on to you and it didn't seem to me all that dismissive, but again I didn't read every thread or know all of the background. You have a cause and are championing it and all within the FT community and its rules which will ultimately decide whether your & the OP's ideas are worthy adopting. If they are I'll still contibute where I can and share my opinions of course and hope you'll do the same regardless of the outcome.

But is that treatment from the volunteers that work for FlyerTalk - or from other FlyerTalkers? I don't see it being from any of the volunteers - in general, that comes from other FlyerTalkers - which implies that other FT'ers don't view FT as a travel agency either.

And we discuss fare prices too...in the mileage run forum. There's a difference between discussing airfares & asking people to find cheap airfares for you.

I appreciate straight talk and have enjoyed that aspect of our exchange. What did "wrankle" me occasionally was not your differing opinion, but your mischaracterization of my statements. Immediate example: I always used the term "large number", which you just upgraded to "majority" and then took a shot at your own creation by referring to "supposed majority". Such tactics lower the dialog and if we can avoid them in future I shall be grateful.

It is reasonable for you to suspect that I am "fired up" because of that experience, but I am not---it is just one anecdote; the moderator was only following the policy and in a civil manner as you noted. My opinions are based on a wider and less personal collection of observations; on interaction with many newcomers; and also on my judgement that the policy itself is flawed, attitudes behind it wrong, and any "travel agency" fears baseless.

People who have dismissed FT are behaving normally. I too didn't try to "improve" Indian Airlines or Walmart or some newpaper or musicians I didn't like. Instead, I flew Jet Airways, shopped at Target, read other papers, and bought CD's of other musicians. That is free market; its goal is to improve the market, not any particular shop.

As one fellow said to me, "FT is like feudal Europe, Yahoo groups are like America. I'll visit Europe but I have immigrated to America!" His judgment, his action.

It is quite an exceptional situation when we feel that a particular individual or organization is both capable of improvement and worthy of our energies towards that goal. I feel that way about FT. Pushing the previous analogy somewhat, maybe that makes me an EU type person.

I had asked: "FT is not a photography store, but we discuss cameras and prices. FT is not a luggage store, but we discuss luggage and prices. What's the big deal about discussing airfares then, which too are a part of travel?"

In response, bhatnsx wrote:

Sadly, what you say is simply not true. When even questions are not permitted, the term "discuss" seems overly charitable. (The MR Discussion Forum is looking more and more like an Obituary Page, with "Fare Gone" notices apparently being the most preferred way to mention airfares. )

Anywhere at FT, I have never seen a question about camera prices answered with "FT is not a photography store".

Never seen a question about luggage prices answered with "FT is not a luggage store".

Never seen such posts deleted.

Never seen such threads closed.

I shall indeed be happy if questions about flights and their prices were treated on par with questions about cameras and their prices, luggage and its price, calling cards/plans and their prices, city tours and their prices, etc.. A formal policy like that will be a great improvement and will clear a lot of confusion.

People are not always into abstract discussion about flights, cameras, luggage, calling plans, Amsterdam restaurants or canal tours. Many questions are indeed driven by a timely upcoming need.

If a question is asked and I happen to know the answer, I'd tell them (eg, I do happen to know for my own reasons that the cheapest ORD-DEL fare is $961 right now) and also mention how to find it or confirm it themselves (ITA, kayak, etc). If I don't know the answer I'd just tell them what I know about how to find it. Others can respond how they see fit. Once again, what's the big deal?

I seriously doubt the poster will make his/her way to this forum Almost ten days later, and post count is still at a big fat 1

A couple of other discussions now, but for a while there last week it seemed like all we had were fare requests and fare requests move from other fora

EmailKid

But what would you expect from "budget" travelers? For most budget travelers, eg, students, the airfare will be the biggest part of their budget and thus naturally their greatest concern.

Do you really expect them to be more concerned about where to buy cheap t-shirts and how to save on burgers and soda? Well, those are concerns too, even free mint and ketchup/mustard packets delighted me to no end at certain age, but compared to airfare they are secondary.

Look, you guys create this forum and if it is beneath every current moderator's dignity, I'll offer to run it, and you can all keep dumping your fare-requests into it, and you can happily go back to and remain with the finer aspects of travel.

aktchi, you did make some good and valid points. However, there's also another broader picture.

No big deal, indeed.

However, sometimes when people (especially some newbies) ask questions, they want to hear the answers they like. Not every one can take the hard cold truth and not everyone is that eager to learn. When they are not pleased, they leave. That's human nature, no hard feelings. Of course, people also have different styles to express themselves in the online fora. That makes it even more complicated. Mis-communication and misunderstanding are often byproducts.

In your observation, there seems to be more hostility than warmth FTers rendering to newbies in MR Forum. There are some parallel dynamics in other fora that I frequent so I am going to make it a more general scenario discussion with two real examples.

Some ground rules first. FT is a very established online community/forum with TOS. Member suggestions have to be moved by TalkBoard and passed before it becomes official. As you know, there are quite a few suggestions/proposals failed to move over the years. If not enough TB members favor the idea, nothing will happen. Correct me if I am wrong. In your view, the current MR Forum (Deals/Discussion) is too restrictive. Under the current FT structure, if you want some changes to that forum, you have to make a convincing proposal before TB even considers it. Not until it happens, members and mods are bound by the current rules. Agree so far?

I agree FT has to think about how we are treating newbies and how to help them. (There's another TB thread on this very topic.) In the meantime, we also have to think about the core missions for FT and what kind of new members we would like to attract and serve. It's simply impossible to please everybody.

FT has grown rapidly with 170K+ registered members. Active participating FTers are far less than 50%, I would say. Some folks estimate only about 3K in active "FT duties" .

Some newbies stumble upon FT for the "wrong" reason. We know there's quite some traffic here at FT. Google is a powerful search engine that brings FT unexpected "guests" over time. Here's the example thread for this kind of "accidental newbies": Credit Card Service Bureau Shutdown?

FT is the top one website when you search "Credit Card Service Bureau" (CCSB). The majority of the posters in this thread were virgin newbies. Did they come to FT because they enjoy harvesting miles/points? No. Should the mod keep that thread open so more discussion could go on? I don't think so. Even they did have "a timely upcoming need", I don't think FT should try to meet the "wrong" expectations of members, newbies or not.

Another kind of newbies with very short FT life-span are those who want a quick fix, short answers, or fishing for coupons/vouchers. Somehow they have a sense of entitlement or something. They usually are not good at rejections and generally never come back when they don't get what they want. Here's the example thread: Help! How do you upgrade award tickets?

True, AA Forum was a tougher forum back then. However, there were folks, me included, trying to "educate" this bride-to-be. Not only did she not like the "award tix not upgradeable" answer, but also she's upset when her finacial priorities were challenged. Her FT lifespan: 2 hours and 32 minutes (she joined and left us in the same afternoon). Did FT help her? Yes, at least we tried. The discussion was active for 6 straight days. Was she happy with our help? I doubt it. Otherwise, she wouldn't have left the building for good.

Please don't take me wrong. I am not anti-newbies. These two example threads may be a bit extreme. (But you get my points, right?) There are way more different types of FT newbies. There are newbies who view FT as godsend.

In a lot of ways, I still consider myself a FT newbie. I don't have the "privilege" to become a frequent traveller yet. But I've learned tons from FT community and am comfortable sharing whatever little I know or learn at this point. I always try to be gentle and provide constructive criticism to newbies.

It took me quite a while to get to this ""comfort zone" right now. When I first joined, I felt overwhelmed, intimidated and didn't know if my questions were good enough. So I started digging, learning from others' posts/questions. I started out as a taker and learner. Now I am not afraid to ask questions and know where to ask. I am even able to provide some answers.

Back to the discussion on low/best fare requests. I did see what the mods see. There are far more fare request threads than we like to see. For any newbie to have an enjoyable FT experience, s/he has to take and give at the same time. It's a two-way street. Expecting FT to serve them the "fish" doesn't go well with the core missions. I don't object to this low/best fare request forum, if FT is able to draw a line and maintain the balance by creating such a forum. A more clear guideline/definition/distinction among the deals, discussion and request fora has to be established though.

************************************************** ***
4/25/08 - Edit to add 3rd newbie example thread (the quick fix kind that didn't even bother to look it up and post in the specific airline forum):

a quick way to find out about the site w/out surfing? (FT Lifespan: 14 Minutes)

Um, we're tolerating the fare requests in Budget Travel, and have been for a while now. We're just trying to come up with a better way than (on some days) three of four new threads are specific "what is the cheapest way to get from XMZ to YEM on July 25 and come back on Aug 12?"

It clutters up the forum and makes searching VERY difficult as some of these threads are going to sneak in there.

My proposal was for a single thread withing Budget Travel where all requests are dumped (for lack of better word), and if veterans feel like helping, then they can jump in. Of course a sticky with helpful searching tips would be useful, kinda like we have the LCC sticky now.

And lin821 is right, many posters aren't realistic. A month ago or so they wanted sub $500 fare to Europe during the tourist season. With fuel surcharges that is pretty much gone even in the winter.

EmailKid

I used that term on purpose as it is a supposed majority until it is actually shown to be one, which seems unlikely due to all those sitting on their hands with you as their unofficial spokesperson. You have an opinion and are sharing it in true FT style and I respect you for doing so. However claiming there is a "large number", which almost always BTW represents a majority, is one thing but seeing or hearing from that "large number"" is quite another.

And I have a very different judgement and opinion on the matter that's completely opposite to yours. And that's allowed on FT.

Lin821: Thank you for your post (#41). I won't quote it here as it is only a few posts above. I am not intimately familiar or experienced with FT's administrative procedures, but I am aware that they exist. In this thread I'd simply like to explain what I see as important, and then leave the decision to those whose responsibility it is.

As far as what I think...Well, during the late hours I started with a parable, but I'll put it in small type (quote font) now, so those who wish to bypass this inspired piece can jump right over.

Unless you own your own airplane, airfares are integral part of travel, and people are naturally concerned. It is reasonable for newcomers to assume that among the dizzying array of 150+ forums, there has to be one where they can ask their question. So they look around and come up with MR (or Budget). Of course, MR people created or joined that forum for a purpose and it wasn't this! While I don't condone their hostility to newcomers, ultimately I don't blame them for the situation either.

The responsibility for creating and solving this problem lies squarely with FT. The situation is real, beyond slogans ("FT is not a travel agency"), and in a flying-related forum you just can't ban questions about people's biggest concern, the airfare.

Where can airfare questions go? Frankly, there are only two solutions: (1) "Maximum Miles" and "Lowest Fares", related by being two different ways to minimize CPM, can go under one roof (but possibly different subforums), or (2) "Lowest Fares" get a separate forum of their own.

As far as I am concerned, the rest is routine. Yes, many will look in, few will join, and fewer still become productive members. Some posters will be nice and civil, some not. Some will have inflated expectations. Some will ask bad questions, some will provide bad answers, some will use bad language. Etc., etc., etc.

Many will join only to ask one air-fare question. I don't mind it because it increases the pool from which we find good long term members. But if we wanted, we could only allow people to post airfare questions after a cool off time, 7 days or 15 days or 30 days after registering.

All of this is normal house-keeping. The important thing is, we would have solved a basic structural problem. After cancer is cured, people still do get routine ailments. We too will continue to have to deal with normal headaches.

I appreciate your frustration that you (as well as MR folks) have to carry this burden as FT does not have a proper place for it. That's why I support the proposal in front of us and urge you (and everyone) to do the same. That is the "better way" you are looking for, indeed the only sensible way.

I am sorry if I gave an incorrect impression. I am only speaking for myself. My opinions are of course based on my experiences, and those include discussions with others, but I do not represent anyone else.

Just want you to know, among those who are in active "FT duties", some are very devoted and passionate. One of the reason why this community is so vibrant. ^

If history is any indication, please check out two previous TalkBoard agenda: Freebies in SPAM Forum (main discussion thread here) & OMNI post counts (too many threads to count ). I believe you will get the perfect picture of FT dynamics in those two "heated" topics. At least that's how I witnessed and experienced the dynamics and learned about the importance of FT administrative procedures. (Quick summaries: the current status of the SPAM issue is tabled and post counts closed.)

Things may not be as simple as you think, in our big FT family. Some of the proposed changes are more than just housekeeping.

Yes, I am glad you speak up and make your points. I think TB needs input from all sides.

I am taking the same approach as you. If I find something useful or need to make a point, I offer my two cents and leave the rest to whoever is in charge. Sometimes a smooth sail awaits. Sometimes, a bumpy ride ahead.

Just sit tight and enjoy yourself.