Closing the External Miles and Points Resources Forum
#91
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The EMPR forum is one of the few places where people who have been in the miles and points "game" for a long time still make up a majority of posters. Other forums are mostly filled with people looking for help these days, rarely offering any. Flyertalk should be a place to discuss the good and bad of all aspects of the miles and points community.
As I've said all along (about many other topics beyond this one), I believe the question should be about value to the community, not to a handful of members. And, yes, there is a difference.
#92
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Really? You never thought to just consider the "why am I seeing this" link and figure it out yourself?? Nothing really new there, though I suppose that's not necessarily a metric to use.
But that's not really what the discussion there is about. The prior topic was all about how much he pays for FB ads and before that questioning if he pays for trips or not. Putting aside that I simply do not care, I'm trying to figure out why those topics are valuable in the context of this community. How does knowing a site's ad budget affect people here reading the content?
But that's not really what the discussion there is about. The prior topic was all about how much he pays for FB ads and before that questioning if he pays for trips or not. Putting aside that I simply do not care, I'm trying to figure out why those topics are valuable in the context of this community. How does knowing a site's ad budget affect people here reading the content?
You really just seem to be imposing your value judgment on others. At best, you are suggesting that there is some mythical magic number of members that you think must be engaged in a forum -- Not that the number of posters is equal to the number of people who find a forum valuable. I know there are many threads I read and find valuable and don't comment on, for various reasons.But there are many forums and threads on FT that have a narrow appeal. That doesn't mean it doesn't have value.
Your argument seems to meander between a few points;
(1) Posters are derogatory/personal/mean/slanderous - people here have shown why that's not really true
(2) There tend to be a dozen or so very active posters - that applies to a lot of forums
(3) It isn't of value - Lots of people have made cogent arguments disagreeing. But a forum that leads to Thepointsguy, OMAAT, and VFTW making improvements is valuable to the community, not just the people who post. Certainly more than a thread on what you ate today.
What you haven't responded to is the burden --- shouldn't the burden be on the person who is trying to shut down speech something more than "I don't find it valuable"? I can make an argument why every post you've made in the past 7 days isn't valuable to me, or is duplicative of something else on the internet.
#93
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This situation is not limited to EMPR. It is common across FT. The most prolific posters for the most part subtract rather than add value. If forum software could enforce a posting speed limit per member, the quality of discussion would improve. @:-)
#95
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Really? You never thought to just consider the "why am I seeing this" link and figure it out yourself?? Nothing really new there, though I suppose that's not necessarily a metric to use.
But that's not really what the discussion there is about. The prior topic was all about how much he pays for FB ads and before that questioning if he pays for trips or not. Putting aside that I simply do not care, I'm trying to figure out why those topics are valuable in the context of this community. How does knowing a site's ad budget affect people here reading the content?
But that's not really what the discussion there is about. The prior topic was all about how much he pays for FB ads and before that questioning if he pays for trips or not. Putting aside that I simply do not care, I'm trying to figure out why those topics are valuable in the context of this community. How does knowing a site's ad budget affect people here reading the content?
As a blogger yourself you seem to have a very hard line in the sand about what can and cannot be discussed on FT. I would love to know what you think is acceptable to discuss here.
#96
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I stopped contributing to that forum once someone decided to accuse me of being a wannabe lover of Lucky, and came to the conclusion that cblaisd did. The forum's a place for whining about bloggers at this point.
I don't find OMNI-PR useful either. Or the comments section of most news websites.
I don't find OMNI-PR useful either. Or the comments section of most news websites.
#97
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Feel free to search on the keywords Princess or Boyfriend. Let me know if you think that is an analytical or constructive conversation. I say it's trying to get even.
#98
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At best, you are suggesting that there is some mythical magic number of members that you think must be engaged in a forum -- Not that the number of posters is equal to the number of people who find a forum valuable. I know there are many threads I read and find valuable and don't comment on, for various reasons.But there are many forums and threads on FT that have a narrow appeal. That doesn't mean it doesn't have value.
And that's really the difference. Creating an echo chamber that stifles true discussion and only supports one view of any given topic is not valuable. I believe the discussion of the bloggers has, for the most part, gone off the deep end in this case.
The argument that it is repetitive just like the Information Desk is a view I particularly oppose. That is an environment specifically designed to invite new members in and help them learn. It adds value to the community by growing it and helping to shepherd new conversations along, letting people dip a toe in without facing the typically unfriendly and brash "welcome" often aimed at new members by those who have been around for a while. New members into the EM&PR forum receive quite a different welcome; it is not pretty.
Please do not try to make this a "Free Speech" argument. That's not going to end well.
I believe discussion should focus on helping members of this community to better explore, learn, understand and experience the world. That takes the form of
- learning about cultures and the logistics for the destinations they are planning a visit;
- understanding the policies and rules (loyalty or otherwise) related to the programs they are using to facilitate those travels;
- exploring more or further afield, guided by the experiences of locals and other travelers who have gone before them; and,
- sharing their experiences to help others similarly benefit.
#99
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I believe that the skew of post volume in this forum is greater than in others on FT. I regularly participate in ~10 fora here across the points, destinations and community areas. None are as skewed at the forum level IMO.
We'll have to disagree on this one. I believe the people who are behaving that way are doing their best to show that they are not. I remain unconvinced.
Not to the same proportions, and not in the same way. When it is the same few people answering the questions of newbies or otherwise contributing to creating a wider platform of knowledge and information that's a valuable performance by a narrow group. When that same few people just create an echo chamber to amplify their views.
And that's really the difference. Creating an echo chamber that stifles true discussion and only supports one view of any given topic is not valuable. I believe the discussion of the bloggers has, for the most part, gone off the deep end in this case.
The argument that it is repetitive just like the Information Desk is a view I particularly oppose. That is an environment specifically designed to invite new members in and help them learn. It adds value to the community by growing it and helping to shepherd new conversations along, letting people dip a toe in without facing the typically unfriendly and brash "welcome" often aimed at new members by those who have been around for a while. New members into the EM&PR forum receive quite a different welcome; it is not pretty.
I believe that some of the discussions are of value. I also believe that there is no need for a dedicated forum to house them. As mentioned several times the useful discussions are easily placed elsewhere within the structure of FT without requiring this haven for what often comes across as thinly veiled personal attacks carefully constructed to toe the FT T&C line. I've been around these parts for 15+ years now; it is not all that hard to see what's happening on that front IMO.
Please do not try to make this a "Free Speech" argument. That's not going to end well.
Not really. I have no doubt that money was spent to accomplish that. I don't see why it matters.
I'll try again and be more explicit this time:
I believe discussion should focus on helping members of this community to better explore, learn, understand and experience the world. That takes the form ofThere are occasional flashes of this type of discussion in EM&PR but I believe those discussions are easily accommodated elsewhere and that the larger threads avoid these main pillars, focusing instead on "blogger xyz is bad," and not in a way that helps with the learning or exploration.
We'll have to disagree on this one. I believe the people who are behaving that way are doing their best to show that they are not. I remain unconvinced.
Not to the same proportions, and not in the same way. When it is the same few people answering the questions of newbies or otherwise contributing to creating a wider platform of knowledge and information that's a valuable performance by a narrow group. When that same few people just create an echo chamber to amplify their views.
And that's really the difference. Creating an echo chamber that stifles true discussion and only supports one view of any given topic is not valuable. I believe the discussion of the bloggers has, for the most part, gone off the deep end in this case.
The argument that it is repetitive just like the Information Desk is a view I particularly oppose. That is an environment specifically designed to invite new members in and help them learn. It adds value to the community by growing it and helping to shepherd new conversations along, letting people dip a toe in without facing the typically unfriendly and brash "welcome" often aimed at new members by those who have been around for a while. New members into the EM&PR forum receive quite a different welcome; it is not pretty.
I believe that some of the discussions are of value. I also believe that there is no need for a dedicated forum to house them. As mentioned several times the useful discussions are easily placed elsewhere within the structure of FT without requiring this haven for what often comes across as thinly veiled personal attacks carefully constructed to toe the FT T&C line. I've been around these parts for 15+ years now; it is not all that hard to see what's happening on that front IMO.
Please do not try to make this a "Free Speech" argument. That's not going to end well.
Not really. I have no doubt that money was spent to accomplish that. I don't see why it matters.
I'll try again and be more explicit this time:
I believe discussion should focus on helping members of this community to better explore, learn, understand and experience the world. That takes the form of
- learning about cultures and the logistics for the destinations they are planning a visit;
- understanding the policies and rules (loyalty or otherwise) related to the programs they are using to facilitate those travels;
- exploring more or further afield, guided by the experiences of locals and other travelers who have gone before them; and,
- sharing their experiences to help others similarly benefit.
I in no way made a free speech argument. (I actually never do, and often remind people free speech doesn't apply to moderated privately owned forums, nor does it ever protect you from criticism of your speech.) I made the argument that you want to stop others from speaking because you don't like what they are saying and imposing your value judgments on others.
And since you've thrown out the term "delusional" before, I'd suggest your view of the Information Desk forum fits that term. Most of the posters there are (a) 1-post wonders who ask for help/complain and never come back, (b) people looking for free award booking services after learning about miles and points from one of the blogs, or (c) people who don't bother to look for the proper forum for their question. The moderators of that forum cant even keep up with transferring posts to the right place. Your argument that there are better forums that can address the valuable stuff works equally (better?) there. (I.e., nearly all the posts belong in Destination fora or individual program fora except the "I want to have 6 business class tickets for travel over Christmas from NY and Hawaii. Tell me how.").
#100
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Some of the posts on this thread have bordered on being axe grinding over past beefs, and commentary on same sex relationships. This is not needed for the TalkBoard to determine whether this proposal should be put to a vote.
On a personal opinion basis, I am a daily reader of that forum and a number of the blogs that get heavy FT coverage. I find the forum entertaining, probably because it regularly includes TMZ style posts from FT members I respect and write well. Lucky, Gary, Summer, et al are very public people who have decided to give up their privacy in order to make a living. That is fair game.
On a personal opinion basis, I am a daily reader of that forum and a number of the blogs that get heavy FT coverage. I find the forum entertaining, probably because it regularly includes TMZ style posts from FT members I respect and write well. Lucky, Gary, Summer, et al are very public people who have decided to give up their privacy in order to make a living. That is fair game.
#101
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I believe discussion should focus on helping members of this community to better explore, learn, understand and experience the world. That takes the form of
- learning about cultures and the logistics for the destinations they are planning a visit;
- understanding the policies and rules (loyalty or otherwise) related to the programs they are using to facilitate those travels;
- exploring more or further afield, guided by the experiences of locals and other travelers who have gone before them; and,
- sharing their experiences to help others similarly benefit.
#102
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Agreed, mostly. Except that venting has its own value. It sometimes makes snese to have a forum dedicated to venting (OMNI PR, TS&S Policy Debate), if for no other reason than keeping that content out of other forums. A venting forum is for writers, not readers. The value is that it's cheaper than psychotherapy.
#103
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but I'll take the bait:
- I think the discussion in EMPR *fits* these broad aspirational categories. Heck, I can make the "What's in my beer fridge right now" thread fit into these. Moral high ground not ceded.
learning about cultures and the logistics for the destinations they are planning a visit;
- As noted, we've talked about Maldivian culture and what one can expect traveling there, and whether a blog post accurately reflects it. We've talked
understanding the policies and rules (loyalty or otherwise) related to the programs they are using to facilitate those travels;
- There's discussion of whether the specific experiences shared in widely read media accurately reflect the policies and rules of specific programs.
- exploring more or further afield, guided by the experiences of locals and other travelers who have gone before them;
- That's pretty redundant of the other criteria you've said. So the same retorts apply.
and,
sharing their experiences to help others similarly benefit.
- Many people do not understand the profit motives or how the travel blogging industry operates. Explaining to people how that works better equips them to use these tools, analyzing them with a critical eye and taking them for what they are worth. And yes, explaining to readers why a blogger never flies/discusses United is helpful. Otherwise, one may incorrectly assume it's because of United's products.
You left out a major part of Flyertalk:
- Allowing people with similar interests and hobbies a place to discuss travel-related topics of interest with one another, and be entertained and develop a sense of community in the process.
And if you think this entire idea of shutting the EMPR forum isn't about individual posters "beefs" with discussions in the forum, I think you are naive.
#104
^ I cannot even count the arguments here that all begin with "I feel....". Please stop trying to dictate what others should talk about....
#105
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
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If that's the metric that concerns you, why not start with those?
I'll try again and be more explicit this time:
I believe discussion should focus on helping members of this community to better explore, learn, understand and experience the world. That takes the form of
I believe discussion should focus on helping members of this community to better explore, learn, understand and experience the world. That takes the form of
- learning about cultures and the logistics for the destinations they are planning a visit;
- understanding the policies and rules (loyalty or otherwise) related to the programs they are using to facilitate those travels;
- exploring more or further afield, guided by the experiences of locals and other travelers who have gone before them; and,
- sharing their experiences to help others similarly benefit.
But in any case, as has been pointed out several times, the EMPR forum certainly helps this community better learn. It acts as an ombudsman for external points and miles resources. Calling them on incorrect information, encouraging them to do better and explaining to people outside the world of online content monetization what their motivation and tactics are. And yes, many of us do need that curtain pulled back because we are not so intimately involved in the constantly evolving world of sponsored content. It's what helps keep us thought leadery, doncha know?
And here's the proof: EMPR is required reading for those in the external points and miles service provider world. Every major blogger, event and other external points and miles service provider reads and reacts to the forum, yourself included.
I understand that many folks don't appreciate an ombudsman looking over their shoulder, but EMPR actually makes a difference as a result of that.
Last edited by kokonutz; Aug 18, 2016 at 8:20 am