Jan 24, 2015, 5:48 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
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On January 23, 2015, TalkBoard passed 7-2-0
the following amendments to the TalkBoard Guidelines (new language underlined, struck language to be deleted):
C. Voting Procedures
i. Once a motion has been made and seconded and all aspects of the Public Notice Procedures in Section D. below have been completed, not sooner than 48 hours later the President shall post a sticky poll thread in the TalkBoard forum calling the question and announcing the vote. The thread shall be titled "Vote: [summary of motion]". In the first post on the sticky poll thread the President shall post the maker and seconder of the motion as well as the voting deadline and then restate the motion that has been made and seconded.
and
D. Public Notice Procedures
i. Once a motion has been made and secondedput before TalkBoard for a vote the Vice President/Secretary shall post a new thread in the public TalkBoard Topics forum announcing the vote along with the voting end date as quickly as feasible. Once that thread is posted, the TalkBoard Vice President/Secretary will submit a request to the FlyerTalk Host or representative to create an site-wide announcement of the vote with a link to the discussion/voting thread in the TalkBoard Topics Forum. The Announcement will be available until either voting is completed and a decision is made or the voting period ends.
Votes
Yes: dschobel, Canarsie, jason8612, kokonutz, MSPeconomist, nsx, rwoman[/COLOR]
No: CMK10, dchristiva
Abstain: -
(lower right wiki corner)On January 23, 2015, TalkBoard passed 7-2-0
the following amendments to the TalkBoard Guidelines (new language underlined, struck language to be deleted):
C. Voting Procedures
i. Once a motion has been made and seconded and all aspects of the Public Notice Procedures in Section D. below have been completed, not sooner than 48 hours later the President shall post a sticky poll thread in the TalkBoard forum calling the question and announcing the vote. The thread shall be titled "Vote: [summary of motion]". In the first post on the sticky poll thread the President shall post the maker and seconder of the motion as well as the voting deadline and then restate the motion that has been made and seconded.
and
D. Public Notice Procedures
i. Once a motion has been made and seconded
Votes
Yes: dschobel, Canarsie, jason8612, kokonutz, MSPeconomist, nsx, rwoman[/COLOR]
No: CMK10, dchristiva
Abstain: -
Voting Over, Motion Passed: Amend the TalkBoard guidelines for timelag
Jan 21, 2015, 6:03 pm
#31
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It is mandated that there must be a waiting period before voting. I would hope that TB members will use that time to consider both sides of the issue and allow that to influence their decision.
Is there a reason to push voting for something, unless it is to correct a mistake TB has made or to eliminate unintended consequences?
Is there a reason to push voting for something, unless it is to correct a mistake TB has made or to eliminate unintended consequences?
Like I said above, we're solving a problem that I think is not likely to ever happen again. If you look at all discussions since the MR Forum, they're proceeding extremely slowly, even this one took several months before a vote started. Why add a mandatory waiting period on top of the natural one?
Jan 21, 2015, 6:17 pm
#32
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I wouldn't mind the waiting period as much if I hadn't seen what has happened on the majority of the votes I've participated in. They've sat at 8-0 for a week, sometimes more. This one has already passed too. In votes where your vote in no way affects the outcome, is there any need to wait?
Like I said above, we're solving a problem that I think is not likely to ever happen again. If you look at all discussions since the MR Forum, they're proceeding extremely slowly, even this one took several months before a vote started. Why add a mandatory waiting period on top of the natural one?
Like I said above, we're solving a problem that I think is not likely to ever happen again. If you look at all discussions since the MR Forum, they're proceeding extremely slowly, even this one took several months before a vote started. Why add a mandatory waiting period on top of the natural one?
The issue this solves is the rush to vote in less than 24 hours from when a motion is posted. If one wants to rush to vote before considering other sides of an issue, then at least now, they have to wait a bit, and we can hope they might consider the other opinions.
Not everyone reads this forum on a regular basis, so this allows them to have some idea of what is being considering, so they can voice their opinions, before one rushes to vote on it.
Jan 21, 2015, 6:24 pm
#33
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If a vote sits at 8-0, it's already passed. The problem was that votes were passing before some could really share their opinions.
The issue this solves is the rush to vote in less than 24 hours from when a motion is posted. If one wants to rush to vote before considering other sides of an issue, then at least now, they have to wait a bit, and we can hope they might consider the other opinions.
Not everyone reads this forum on a regular basis, so this allows them to have some idea of what is being considering, so they can voice their opinions, before one rushes to vote on it.
The issue this solves is the rush to vote in less than 24 hours from when a motion is posted. If one wants to rush to vote before considering other sides of an issue, then at least now, they have to wait a bit, and we can hope they might consider the other opinions.
Not everyone reads this forum on a regular basis, so this allows them to have some idea of what is being considering, so they can voice their opinions, before one rushes to vote on it.
If people don't read this forum on a regular basis, that is somewhat their fault isn't it? If people choose not to participate they can't well be upset about the outcome.
Jan 21, 2015, 6:30 pm
#34
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Okay again, as I've repeated for months, there is no rush to vote. It simply does not exist. One vote passed quickly over an issue that had been discussed for months before we voted on it and I've been saying, this is unlikely to ever happen again.
If people don't read this forum on a regular basis, that is somewhat their fault isn't it? If people choose not to participate they can't well be upset about the outcome.
If people don't read this forum on a regular basis, that is somewhat their fault isn't it? If people choose not to participate they can't well be upset about the outcome.
If people don't read the forum on a regular basis, it can be somewhat their fault, but why the reluctance to give people more time to comment?
Jan 21, 2015, 7:24 pm
#35
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As others have said, by the time we're ready to vote, we've waited a long time gathering all manners of information. The 2 days is a needless formality that is unlikely to change anything but add 2 more days until Flyertalkers can experience the change they want.
Jan 21, 2015, 7:33 pm
#36
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I don't think it's being anxious to think that when 8/9 people have voted and the 9th vote cannot change the outcome, the 9th person should vote barring some extenuating circumstances.
As others have said, by the time we're ready to vote, we've waited a long time gathering all manners of information. The 2 days is a needless formality that is unlikely to change anything but add 2 more days until Flyertalkers can experience the change they want.
As others have said, by the time we're ready to vote, we've waited a long time gathering all manners of information. The 2 days is a needless formality that is unlikely to change anything but add 2 more days until Flyertalkers can experience the change they want.
You are assuming that most FTers want the change, whatever it is. You are assuming that a limited number of posts in the TB are reflective of the majority of FT. One of the reasons I like this new step is because it gives more of an opportunity for those who may not have otherwise been aware of whatever the motion is to comment.
Jan 21, 2015, 7:47 pm
#37
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You assume that everything takes a "long time" before making it to the motion stage. In some cases, perhaps it wouldn't.
You are assuming that most FTers want the change, whatever it is. You are assuming that a limited number of posts in the TB are reflective of the majority of FT. One of the reasons I like this new step is because it gives more of an opportunity for those who may not have otherwise been aware of whatever the motion is to comment.
You are assuming that most FTers want the change, whatever it is. You are assuming that a limited number of posts in the TB are reflective of the majority of FT. One of the reasons I like this new step is because it gives more of an opportunity for those who may not have otherwise been aware of whatever the motion is to comment.
We're elected to make the best choices for Flyertalk as a whole and we solicit opinion on every measure. The level of research and work that goes into each vote is staggering. We send PMs to people who are experts on the matter to come comment, we discuss amongst ourselves the issues and in the public forum. There was no rush to vote nor any voting without careful planning and thought. This is a superficial change.
Jan 21, 2015, 8:28 pm
#38
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I voted for the amendment for only one reason:
To give motions and votes by members of TalkBoard an improved chance to be publicized — such as in the TalkMail newsletter — in an attempt for more FlyerTalk members to be involved.
To give motions and votes by members of TalkBoard an improved chance to be publicized — such as in the TalkMail newsletter — in an attempt for more FlyerTalk members to be involved.
Jan 21, 2015, 9:49 pm
#39
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Posts: 2,233
I agree with this. While this amendment is not perfect in some ways, it is an improvement on TB procedures (if not in the past, then for the future), and thus an improvement for this community. A little more time between motions --> announcements --> votes may lead to more involvement/discussion from the community.
Obviously, what TB members do with the added involvement/information is up to them.
Jan 21, 2015, 10:55 pm
#40
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The outcry against our quick vote is by a vocal minority that is directing their anger at the change to the MR Forum at us because we're a convenient target.
The comments also about that 'vocal minority' are frankly disappointing as while I understand they were meant for a private forum they've been posted here and could be taken to mean that that you only want to hear a certain kind of input and don't feel TB should be accountable for decisions it makes. Either you welcome all member input regardless whether it's what you like hearing or you don't.
Originally Posted by Canarsie
I voted for the amendment for only one reason:
To give motions and votes by members of TalkBoard an improved chance to be publicized — such as in the TalkMail newsletter — in an attempt for more FlyerTalk members to be involved.
To give motions and votes by members of TalkBoard an improved chance to be publicized — such as in the TalkMail newsletter — in an attempt for more FlyerTalk members to be involved.
Jan 21, 2015, 11:15 pm
#41
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No rush to vote but voting done quickly. The spin that 'snap voting' is an aberration that only happened once is fiction as there were actually three occasions in 2014 out of a grand total of four motions of it occurring and I'm sure it would still be happening had nothing been said in opposition.
The comments also about that 'vocal minority' are frankly disappointing as while I understand they were meant for a private forum they've been posted here and could be taken to mean that that you only want to hear a certain kind of input and don't feel TB should be accountable for decisions it makes. Either you welcome all member input regardless whether it's what you like hearing or you don't.
The comments also about that 'vocal minority' are frankly disappointing as while I understand they were meant for a private forum they've been posted here and could be taken to mean that that you only want to hear a certain kind of input and don't feel TB should be accountable for decisions it makes. Either you welcome all member input regardless whether it's what you like hearing or you don't.
Jan 22, 2015, 10:25 pm
#42
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A quick vote and a rush to vote are too separate things. If people vote quickly because they feel they've made up their mind that's one thing. If people vote quickly because they're pressured to do it, that's another. The second is what I consider a rush to vote and it's something that does not exist. It has never existed. It's considered bad form to even PM a member about voting.
Jan 22, 2015, 10:33 pm
#43
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I disagree strongly. There has been a lot of pressure for everyone to vote quickly on TB for more than a year now and it has been increasing, although perhaps it has fortunately diminished a bit very recently. The pressure has been deliberately created by those (plural but you know who is the main offender) who believe that everyone should follow their modus operandi of voting instantly (apparently just to demonstrate to others that TB can act quickly) rather than waiting for additional input or stopping to think carefully and reconsider whether upon reflection the entire discussion causes one to rethink the position. Unfortunately I cannot provide evidence here beyond a statement of my own perceptions and experience during my time on TB since doing so would require that I quote or otherwise discuss some comments that were posted in the private TB forum and I will not break confidentiality.
I've said it many times and I'll say it again, there is no correlation between the time spent reflecting on a vote and the quality of that vote. And let's also keep some perspective, we're not electing the Pope here. How much time do you really need to vote on whether we should have a USA Forum? Do you really need to reflect on the entire discussion or await new input? No, you can go with your gut based on your thoughts, your research and what's already been posted about the matter.
Last edited by CMK10; Jan 22, 2015 at 10:54 pm
Jan 22, 2015, 11:18 pm
#44
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Of course there's been a lot of pressure to vote very quickly.
Since we're not electing the pope, does it really matter whether the outcome is determined and announced and/or the vote is finished now or in 48 hours? You alluded to people being deprived of a new forum for an additional two days, but what aree the chances that it makes a big difference to someone whether the new forum is available now or in a few days, especially since the time lag from the vote being decided/finished to the appearance of the new forum is variable and depends on the CD's schedule. As we all know there was a recent case where some people positively wanted to be deprived of the new forum, the longer the better in their opinions I'm sure.
Since we're not electing the pope, does it really matter whether the outcome is determined and announced and/or the vote is finished now or in 48 hours? You alluded to people being deprived of a new forum for an additional two days, but what aree the chances that it makes a big difference to someone whether the new forum is available now or in a few days, especially since the time lag from the vote being decided/finished to the appearance of the new forum is variable and depends on the CD's schedule. As we all know there was a recent case where some people positively wanted to be deprived of the new forum, the longer the better in their opinions I'm sure.
Jan 23, 2015, 6:15 am
#45
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I guess I've been oblivious to this (not 100% unusual for me 
) unless it's only been in the private TB forum. I'd be curious to know if other TB members feel the same way? I'd also be interested in knowing where this perceived "pressure" seems to be coming from - FT membership? The CD? Other TB members? Other?
I recall what appeared to be TB member(s) dragging a vote out to the very end of the 2 week window for no apparently "reasonable" purpose, but I don't recall any discussions around discouraging a TB member to take their time voting so long as there is just cause to do so (such as cases where a TB member wants more feedback before voting).
) unless it's only been in the private TB forum. I'd be curious to know if other TB members feel the same way? I'd also be interested in knowing where this perceived "pressure" seems to be coming from - FT membership? The CD? Other TB members? Other?I recall what appeared to be TB member(s) dragging a vote out to the very end of the 2 week window for no apparently "reasonable" purpose, but I don't recall any discussions around discouraging a TB member to take their time voting so long as there is just cause to do so (such as cases where a TB member wants more feedback before voting).