Jenbel

And just possibly listening to what members want? Afterall, when we consulted the Cbuzz members, their response was rather different from what people on TB were saying. Should members who don't even use a forum be able to use TB to dictate what happens on that forum?

kokonutz

lol, if we are going to listen to what the members want we will need to gather some feathers and start warming the tar for the members to use on certain moderators!

As I say, it's a thorny issue. There are plenty of very satisfied KVS customers, for example. Lots of folks who make money from FF services and even a network of blogs that make money by basically being FT-info-miners. I subscribe to many of them. I want those services to be talked about here and I hope for their continued success.

But with the door open to certain commercial ventures, how do we prevent that same door from being open to all sorts of goods and services being hawked. I do not believe the members want FT to become a marketplace for charter services, airline consolidators, travel agents, etc to be hitting us up to buy or use their services and products...other than in the ads they buy from IB.

So far, there has been a very informal 'old boys network' approach to this. Certain popular goods and services are given a wink and a nod. Others are summarily dismissed.

It comes back to whether standards can actually exist to keep what the members want here and the stuff they don't off. Or if we're going to just go with the old boys network and wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

It's a tough nut to crack, and if it is going to be addressed it needs to be done in a comprehensive, high-level, strategic way. So I agree with you that just creating a forum is NOT going to solve the issue.

Jenbel

No, you miss my point. I mean actually go out to the members who are using the forums where these things are happening - not the TB junkies who lust to have mod powers clipped and who haven't seen a forum they didn't think was a good idea. We know from the experience on Cbuzz about commercial dos that forum users of Cbuzz saw the issue differently from people who spent time on TB. I think it's the difference between discussing in the absence and discussing having direct experience.

Neither do I. Yet, I see no sign of it happening. Do you know how many 'ads posing as posts' I delete from travel agents every year as spam? Neither do I. But it's common enough to know that it is a regular occurrence.

Perhaps you need to have some degree of faith that some of these issues you describe are as old as FT, and the mods have been quietly dealing with them with little fuss. We don't need TB's help in deciding what to do with air charter services, airline consolidators and travel agents. Collectively, we're probably already doing it on a daily basis. This is one area where you absolutely need to attempt to engage with the mods, because we deal with it already all the time, and because most of it is deleted in a way which you can't even see, you don't really see all that goes on in this area.

So perhaps, stop the cracks about the 'old boys network' or 'tarring and feathering'. You are not encouraging me to engage with you. And you know I think there are areas of grey where further definition or management is required.

kokonutz

My goodness, I actually agree with you and for that you get all lecture-y on me! I'm not making this adversarial...you are!

And let's not lose our sense of humor, shall we? That would be a pity.

I do understand fairly well both the activities that moderators currently take - and do not take - to manage commercial solicitations on FT. Some meet the mods undefined (undefinable?) standards of acceptable while most do not.

I will re-state three key points I have posted within the past 6 or so hours:

1) It comes back to whether standards can actually exist to keep what the members want here and the stuff they don't off.

2) It's a tough nut to crack, and if it is going to be addressed it needs to be done in a comprehensive, high-level, strategic way. So I agree with you that just creating a forum is NOT going to solve the issue.

3) I think it will involve working on the TOS, perhaps creating a new forum, and getting Mods on the same page regarding the matter.

Pegasus23

Thanks Jenbel & Kokonutz.

I enjoyed your points of view and your willingness to share, and to speak out without knowing all the answers. It is refreshing and avoids the dogma of paths well worn.

dhammer53

You couldn't let sleeping dogs alone?
You do realize what you're doing don't you? You're creating a lot of fun for multiple posters for days on end.

Shameless plug for a now waitlisted BRT.

Jenbel

Ok, let's look at your three points:

Yes. Because IME a lot of spam is 'you know it instantly when you see it'. We give waivers for services which have a relationship with FT (such as engaged company reps) and where we know those services are key to frequent flyers (ExpertFlyer, KVS for example). And those waivers are not given lightly and do not generally just involve just one mod making that decision - usually they go all the way up to the CD and she decides.

But as you and I have discussed previously, there are new challenges coming up. For example, commercial type dos/seminars are a different proposition from traditional advertising. What about blogs and people trying to drive traffic to their sites? Trip Reports has just consulted their members on trip reports which consist solely of a link to someone's blog where the trip report is stored. Are they commercial? In the main, probably not. But it does mean the trip report is being advertised on FT, but the information is not contained on FT.

Yes, I think the first step is in actually defining the problem. For me, it's not spam, it's not signatures. It's about the interface between social media and promotion. Where does informative stop and promotion start? When does promotion become detrimental to members? How do you stop promotion becoming detrimental to members? And here's a real controversial one. We exist on FT because of IB. Should protection of IB's business model be a consideration?

Note I'm not answering those. Way easier to ask questions than try to solve them!

And this is the one which gives me a problem. You single out the Mods as the ones being not on the same page. I would think that this will involve getting everyone - TB, members and mods - on the same page. And that might mean even you don't end up on the page you started on But I agree there needs to be some degree of co-operative thinking on this as we do need consistency.

kokonutz

Again, I agree with your detailed summary of the key questions to begin answering.

Let me clarify, when I say this would have to be addressed 'in a comprehensive, high level, strategic way', I mean getting the key decision takers on FT (the CD, the mods and the TB) to agree on the end that is most desirable to achieve. And then working backward from that goal to find the path from there to here.

And when I say 'I think it will involve working on the TOS, perhaps creating a new forum, and getting Mods on the same page regarding the matter,' I mean to imply that it is something that, if normal protocol were followed, would necessarily involve coordination and agreement among the CD, the TB and the mods. And it would require buy-in from at least 2/3 of the TB but 100% of the mods.

So what I am suggesting over all, as I have been suggesting for some time, is far better and deeper coordination and cooperation between the TB and the mods and the CD than has existed heretofore in order to tackle the thornier issues such as creeping commercialism and lobbying IB for, as well as the the implementation of, wiki posts as the two most striking and immediate examples.

kokonutz

Are you now, or have you ever been, a commercial venture!?

kipper

Here's another example of a possible commercial thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...okup-tool.html

Should they be required to go through the CD and be listed as a company representative?

How is this handled? Should the thread be left as is? Things like this should be clarified, so there is a process/procedure.

Jenbel

It is currently handled by the forum mods, who will look at threads which are reported to them or which catch their eye, and which they will handle according to the process and procedures laid out for moderators.

Since there does not seem to be a company involved, there cannot be a company representative.

Have you reported this thread to mods if you are concerned about it? Have you asked them why they have not so far considered it to be commercial? ETA: I can see why I would not consider it to be a commercial posting, but I'm not prepared to set out my reason in case it is not the same as theirs'.

RichMSN

I snoozed, I lost. One of these days I'll do the BRT. It's on my list.

kipper

I'd point out that while it's not an official company for now, they are asking users to register, if they want to use certain aspects of it.

To me though, this falls into the same category as those who post, "New promotion for XYZ. Read my blog for details." It's for personal gain, and at that point, I think there needs to be a policy of some sort. Either share the details or don't, but don't try to drive page views or site visits on FT. To me, that's not the spirit of FT.

As far as reporting it to the mods, why bother, since it seems pretty obvious there's no hard and fast rule regarding commercialization, and mods are free to do manage their forums as they want, within "certain guidelines."

Jenbel

I'm not going to get into an argument about another moderator's decision. Discussion of specific moderator actions is not permitted. I repeate my questions - have you talked to the forum's moderators about your concerns about this thread? I guess your final paragraph answers that. If you are not prepared to engage with them, why should they be prepared to engage with you?

hhoope01

While that may be true, are you expecting a forum's Mod to read through every single post made?

I'm not sure that is a realistic expectation. Therefore, when you see something that may be an issue, let them know so they can deal with it if its needed.