I don't actually disagree with you...

But it's tricky, there are things shared at ALL DOs that are between friends, not for posting, off-the-record. So no doubt these events will have that, too.

Maybe speakers just don't want to include any of that stuff in their talks, and just share those over drinks rather than in sessions, and then the things could be recorded. And then koko could make a ton of $$$ selling the recordings on eBay! ^^

Though as I say I don't know that I like being recorded personally. It's not that I don't want folks to have the info, I just don't like my words so memorialized without my having had the chance to stop, phrase something a different way, think better of having said it, etc.

There was a "fee" at Cabbage DO last summer.

It paid for, among other things:

• Lunch during our tour of the Anchorage airport
• The Kenai Fjords cruise out of Seward
• Food and wine at the barbecue at BOB W's house (close to 40 attendees)
• The bus ride into Denali National Park

Oh, and the speaker wasn't compensated for his time, either. That would be John Parrott, director of Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport.

Asking the TalkBoard to get into the muck and differentiate between two non-profit events that have many similarities is not our place--at least that's what is becoming clear to me the longer the circular arguments in this thread continue.

If and when these become for-profit ventures, then we can address the issue of these types of DOs in that framework. Until then, we're welcome to consider ideas such as allowing a space for commercial postings on FlyerTalk, but these DOs will not fall under that category.

Hence the distinction. I've learned plenty at DOs and don't expect a DO to be recorded (nor personal conversations).

This is a seminar, and again, if it's being held for the benefit of the community, then the community should benefit - all of it.

What was optional? Was the fee for the entire 3 days or could you pick and choose what you wanted to do (i.e. just go on the tour, or just go to dinner)?

Would that actually matter in some meaningful way?

Last year Rick's Chicago event, there was a base fee of $20 which covered room, supplies, etc. and then each meal could be added separately. (If you were staying at the host hotel, they got one person's meal thrown in to the room rate but of course no one was obligated to stay there.)

Sounds like your scenario last year's Chicago Semianr works for you.

On the other hand, it's way more ocmplicated to administer. And as long as the thing is non-profit with volunteers, the less complex the better.

Is it your view that it would be impermissable to offer a series of activities where everyone had to pitch into the whole thing, they couldn't just drop into bits and pieces?

I mean, sure, that could be a rule. And that may even be the practice at most events. But it's also something more of a PTIA, so I'd hate to see it so enshrined.

Plus again, if it's the standard you'd operate on you're at least happy with how the October ORD seminar was put togehter! Which is great, because it's food for thought as others plan future events, at least in terms of how to get your blessing! ^

Well, I'm not quite buying the distinction between a 'seminar' and a 'DO', I still think the seminar is a DO.

However, I also don't have a problem with a seminar that is also recorded. Any speaker with a problem being recorded would just either temper their remarks (because plenty is shared off-the-record at DOs all the time) or decline the speaking invitation.

But surely you don't mean that all of it is recorded, some of the best stuff is the informal interaction over drinks, what if logistical problems prevent good recording of Q&A? Are we going to say that a 'seminar' is illegitimate if it doesn't invest in a certain minimum of A/V expense, first to record the talks and then to even have a roaming mike (and someone to manage it) for questions and someone to edit the recordings and put them in the appropriate file format and host them online?

And who is going to pay for this? The seminar attendees? They get the talks by virtue of being there at the event. The community expects it without pickng up the cost. I suspect that many organizers who are already generous would find a way to be even more generous and make this all happen. But it would be nice if someone who wanted this and couldn't attend would rais etheir hand and say "I'll figure out how to help get this done" rather than just expecting that it be done for them and given to them, at someone else's effort and expense!

Mary, I think you actually have a relatively reasonable request and I realize I'm probably just getting bitter at this point at all the ungratefulness for the efforts of others displayed in this thread, it's really disappoitning and unseemingly.

I'd love to see something develop where more people have more access to more information via new mediums. I just don't want to see people who are already working hard out of thier own time and effort criticized from the sidelines for failing to do that too. :)

TALKBOARD-DO.

Euromann will contact seminar speakers and collect their powerpoint presentations and post them on a master thread for the whole FT community
to see.

* No need for FTU or ORD-Do or their pesky sponsors and moral ambiguity about speakers' travel-related per diems or organizers skimming cash/creating downstream for-profit companies

* No need for Flyertalk or Inside Flyer or Milepoint because the posted info will provide essentially one-stop shopping for mileage-related info and obviate the repeat viewing 'stickiness' that such websites business models require from posters.

* No need for the cultivation of a community of sharing between like-minded people whether online or at in person Dos/Seminars, because who needs people when you can rely on a master document.



There is nothing stopping someone who has the time and motivation from doing a search of any speaker (or any other FTer that you perceive as having special knowledge like vysean of USAir or mrpalert for car rentals or any of the lurkers) and gleaning information from their FT posts over the last 2-10 years. Its all there.

The more I think about it, the value proposition of Seminars is not about commercialism or even knowledge, its about CONVENIENCE. Information on FT is free, and all of us have plenty of proof of our posting contributions to this community. If you want the Cliff Notes (Seminar) because you don't have the time or interest to read the admittedly scattered book (forums), then FTU or ORD-Do fulfill that niche.



And if these Seminars are going to have their budgets micromanaged by line item, I sure hope ingy and tommy include the 'TalkBoard Tax' - X $$$ for advertising and unsubsidized food due to prohibition of C-buzz posting and sponsor recruitment. I guess we'll find out how many TB incumbents make it through the next election with that on their resume!!!

Gary, I think you've become oversensitive :)

I don't mean ALL of it, I mean the actual seminar part(s). As for the cost, well, someone has to have a digital recorder to stick next to the speaker. We're not talking about studio-recording quality :) After that, it's just a matter of loading it to FT and posting a link for anyone who is interested to listen. Perhaps I'm over-simplifying, but it doesn't have to cost anything.

Since it was my idea... I'll even volunteer to try to figure out how to deal with the recordings and get them posted, since I'm sure there will be several.

I think it would go a long way to making it seem less like a money-making event, and more like a community event.

I'm not sure how I ended up being mentioned so often in the last couple pages of this thread, but all I have to say is: My porta-potty was AWESOME!

Missy, I saw a picture of it... AND IT WAS ^^

If that's you interpretation of my position then you need to re-read my posts.

What I am saying is that when the purpose of a get-together is social it is a Do.

When the purpose of a get-together is to buy (even at a cut-rate price!) and sell information (with some social aspects too!!!) it is a seminar.


Yes, people go to seminar to get information from speakers.

IME, people were meant to go to Dos to interact socially and if they wanted to go on about points and miles then all the better.

And no, not just to get drunk, either. Also to get laid. Or, in my case where I met my fiancee at the Portland BrewFest Do in 2002, to get married. :) @:-)

I don't have to read minds to understand what's being sold: I can simply read the threads.

If the thread says, 'come to Des Moines, we're going to meet and talk and have some fun! $49 covers food and drinks, see you there' then it's clear to me that what's being sold is the community.

If the thread says 'come to Des Moines and for $49 you can learn all sorts of valuable information at expert sessions' then I know that it is information and access to experts is what is being sold, with community as an add-on.

It is, to me, a step too far away from community and into commercialism.

I'm done arguing Pedagogics :)

But I'm also discouraged that two sides on an argument can't simply disagree without it devolving into one side being told that "you need my blessing" (you), or that "the community has spoken" (tommy). Basically: we're right, you're wrong, and if you don't agree with "us" you should just go away.

I think there's a difference between a Seminar and a Do. As I've stated I've not seen vendors being sold tables at a "Do" in exchange to pitch a product to the eyeballs that attend. I've seen that plenty of times at seminars over the years, and that's just one thing that makes it feel different to me. Seminars being largely one way (presenters lecturing the masses, vs a totally social interaction), is another. Comped room/badge for speakers, blah, blah,blah.

If the TB wants to rule on this, suggest a modification to the TOS, or create a new forum. Great. It'll make things easier for the community moderators. If not, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

My thanks go out to anyone that has organized a Do (or Seminar) over the years.

I'm just shocked it just offends my senses that people would come onto Flyertalk and be so brash as to organize an event where the primary purpose of getting together was to talk about miles and points.

We gotta nip that in the bud right now!!! :rolleyes: :td::td::td:

^^^

ok, so pull the trigger with a new thread that tb can vote on already.

i actually hope that ingy and tommy choose to rethink their non-profit status, just so that once they convert to being 'commercial' by admitting to taking a salary of a penny, they can be unfettered from all of the tb worst-case scenario-ing.

lets find out how many people want their money back if ingy and tommy decide to alert their registrants and prospective registrants that they have become 'for-profit'.

or better yet, how about ingy and tommy advising that the cost of their event pricing just went up by x $$$ because of contemplated tb policy change. THEN, the 'community' that TB (or at least koko) purportedly speaks for, will have a FIRSTHAND opportunity to decide if they feel that these Do/Seminar distinctions hold water.

HOW ABOUT A POLL in the FTU and ORD-DO threads to get a sense of the room? It would seem that the ultimate affected party- participants and prospects, should be able to weigh in in the light of day (C-Buzz) not this obscure crevice (TB Forum).