Discussion Thread: Talkboard Voting
Jul 14, 2010 | 11:14 am
#16
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You guys want to start a new thread re: what constitutes abstain or 'is'? 
Cheers.
Cheers.
Jul 14, 2010 | 11:18 am
#17
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I can't disagree more strongly. If there is one thing that I learned during my two terms on TalkBoard is that the rules should be set in stone and understood by all before important issues or personalities are involved.
Jul 14, 2010 | 11:28 am
#18
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The fundamental un-clarity of this point is the root of the problem of how to even know how to count the votes on this (or most any) motion, since if you take the plain meaning of the language it would appear that the vote was in fact 50/50.
This business is going to continue to plague the TB because to abstain from voting -- to not vote! -- cannot with any sense mean to participate in voting.
Let folks somehow otherwise note their presence in a debate rather than using a term to mean something it doesn't mean -- thereby continuing to assure that these discussions will have a long and hearty future.
Last edited by cblaisd; Jul 14, 2010 at 11:35 am
Jul 14, 2010 | 11:57 am
#19
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As long as TalkBoard has 9 active members, 6 votes are required to pass a motion by the required 2/3 majority. If 1 member either fails to vote (8 votes cast) or votes "abstain" (9 votes cast including 1 "abstain" vote), the same 6 votes are still required to pass the motion by the 2/3 majority. Hence, as long as only 1 abstention occurs during a vote, it is a moot point as the mathematics is the same regardless of the interpretation.
It may be useful for TalkBoard to pass a clarification of this rule for future situations where multiple people vote to "abstain".
Jul 14, 2010 | 12:06 pm
#20
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Thanks for that crystal-clear explanation, B747-437B. ^
Jul 14, 2010 | 12:09 pm
#21
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Again, the announcement in 2005 read as follows:
The TalkBoard has passed, 7-2 a motion that for purposes of TalkBoard votes, only "Yes" and "No" votes will be considered when calculating whether a vote passes or fails. Abstentions and non-voting will be noted but will not be considered in the vote total.
Voting yes: attorney28, Dovster, kempis, missydarlin, ScottC, Spiff, wharvey
Voting no: gleff, Starwood Lurker
Voting yes: attorney28, Dovster, kempis, missydarlin, ScottC, Spiff, wharvey
Voting no: gleff, Starwood Lurker
Last edited by Dovster; Jul 14, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Jul 14, 2010 | 12:22 pm
#22
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While we digress on the rules on voting (yes, it is important)...
Is everyone really satisfied that there:
(1) was a vote that recognized "that some content in the Mileage Run Discussions forum should be subject to access restrictions to be determined",
(2) then a vote passed to make "Mileage Run forum be accessible only to registered and logged in members of FlyerTalk and that no further restrictions be adopted at this time"
(3) then a vote to rescind the second vote
While I can agree that it will be nice to have the voting etiquette laid out before anymore votes are taken, I sincerely hope that discussions will also focus on some solution to the original problem (the first point). I would seem rather silly to agree that something should be done, but then agree to do nothing about it.
Perhaps new ideas are being discussed already within TB?
Is everyone really satisfied that there:
(1) was a vote that recognized "that some content in the Mileage Run Discussions forum should be subject to access restrictions to be determined",
(2) then a vote passed to make "Mileage Run forum be accessible only to registered and logged in members of FlyerTalk and that no further restrictions be adopted at this time"
(3) then a vote to rescind the second vote
While I can agree that it will be nice to have the voting etiquette laid out before anymore votes are taken, I sincerely hope that discussions will also focus on some solution to the original problem (the first point). I would seem rather silly to agree that something should be done, but then agree to do nothing about it.
Perhaps new ideas are being discussed already within TB?
Last edited by livious; Jul 14, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Jul 14, 2010 | 1:15 pm
#23
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FWIW, I did discuss with gleff in his role as TalkBoard President what the implication of "abstain" votes was before I voted that way. So I was fully aware of the ramifications of voting "abstain" as opposed to either "yes" or "no".
As long as TalkBoard has 9 active members, 6 votes are required to pass a motion by the required 2/3 majority. If 1 member either fails to vote (8 votes cast) or votes "abstain" (9 votes cast including 1 "abstain" vote), the same 6 votes are still required to pass the motion by the 2/3 majority. Hence, as long as only 1 abstention occurs during a vote, it is a moot point as the mathematics is the same regardless of the interpretation.
It may be useful for TalkBoard to pass a clarification of this rule for future situations where multiple people vote to "abstain".
As long as TalkBoard has 9 active members, 6 votes are required to pass a motion by the required 2/3 majority. If 1 member either fails to vote (8 votes cast) or votes "abstain" (9 votes cast including 1 "abstain" vote), the same 6 votes are still required to pass the motion by the 2/3 majority. Hence, as long as only 1 abstention occurs during a vote, it is a moot point as the mathematics is the same regardless of the interpretation.
It may be useful for TalkBoard to pass a clarification of this rule for future situations where multiple people vote to "abstain".
Allowing the separate "abstain" took that member out of the vote count all together without putting them in jeopardy of the "missed votes" clause.
With 9 members and one abstention, then yes, you still need 6 members to vote yes for a win
However, with 2 abstentions... the number would only need 5 because 5/7 > 2/3
3 abstentions would only need 4 of the remaining 6 votes to approve.
Jul 14, 2010 | 1:25 pm
#24
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I concur that the regulations as presently written are counter-intuitive and place an even greater burden than the already required 2/3 majority to pass a motion. This should be clarified.
Jul 14, 2010 | 1:38 pm
#25
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FWIW, current rules state:
So, it says that 2/3rds of the members participating in the vote must vote yes. If someone selects "Abstain" - they have participated, just neither voted in favor nor against.
It would appear that this overrides the 2005 vote in question as this more recent & these are the officially adopted guidelines.
Originally Posted by TB Guidelines
C. Voting Procedures
i. Once a motion has been made and seconded the President shall post a sticky poll thread in the TalkBoard forum calling the question and announcing the vote. The thread shall be titled "Vote: [summary of motion]". In the first post on the sticky poll thread the President shall post the maker and seconder of the motion as well as the voting deadline and then restate the motion that has been made and seconded.
ii. TalkBoard members may register their vote of yes, no or abstain while the voting period is open.
iii. It is each TalkBoard members’ responsibility to check the TalkBoard forum often enough that they do not inadvertently miss a vote.
iv. A TalkBoard member who is otherwise unable to log onto FlyerTalk due to a suspension may appeal to the FlyerTalk Host for the privilege of access to the private TalkBoard forum for the sole purpose of conducting TalkBoard business including voting on motions.
v. Once a TalkBoard member casts a vote that vote is final.
vi. Regular motions shall be kept open for a period of two weeks from the posting of the sticky poll unless
a. under extenuating circumstances, the President may call for a shorter voting period although in no circumstance shall a vote be open for less than five days.
b. all TalkBoard members have registered their vote.
vii. A motion shall pass if two-thirds of TalkBoard members participating in that vote vote ‘yes.’ viii. At the close of a voting period the President shall formally announce the results in the sticky thread and instruct the Vice President/Secretary to comply with the TalkBoard’s public notice procedures.
ix. When motions containing recommendations for changes to FlyerTalk are passed the President shall communicate that recommendation to the FlyerTalk Host.
i. Once a motion has been made and seconded the President shall post a sticky poll thread in the TalkBoard forum calling the question and announcing the vote. The thread shall be titled "Vote: [summary of motion]". In the first post on the sticky poll thread the President shall post the maker and seconder of the motion as well as the voting deadline and then restate the motion that has been made and seconded.
ii. TalkBoard members may register their vote of yes, no or abstain while the voting period is open.
iii. It is each TalkBoard members’ responsibility to check the TalkBoard forum often enough that they do not inadvertently miss a vote.
iv. A TalkBoard member who is otherwise unable to log onto FlyerTalk due to a suspension may appeal to the FlyerTalk Host for the privilege of access to the private TalkBoard forum for the sole purpose of conducting TalkBoard business including voting on motions.
v. Once a TalkBoard member casts a vote that vote is final.
vi. Regular motions shall be kept open for a period of two weeks from the posting of the sticky poll unless
a. under extenuating circumstances, the President may call for a shorter voting period although in no circumstance shall a vote be open for less than five days.
b. all TalkBoard members have registered their vote.
vii. A motion shall pass if two-thirds of TalkBoard members participating in that vote vote ‘yes.’ viii. At the close of a voting period the President shall formally announce the results in the sticky thread and instruct the Vice President/Secretary to comply with the TalkBoard’s public notice procedures.
ix. When motions containing recommendations for changes to FlyerTalk are passed the President shall communicate that recommendation to the FlyerTalk Host.
It would appear that this overrides the 2005 vote in question as this more recent & these are the officially adopted guidelines.
Jul 14, 2010 | 1:57 pm
#26
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Moreover, there is good reason why it should not be considered as such. TB regulations allow a member to be voted off if he misses three votes. It is seen as an indication that he is simply no longer interested in serving. In my experience, TB members have been loathe to miss even one vote.
There could well be valid reasons why two or more TB members feel the need to abstain. Perhaps they have personal conflict of interests. Perhaps they are uncertain of what is the best path to take on a particular issue and thus do not want to have their votes counted.
If you say that by abstaining they are voting, you are automatically counting theme as "nay" votes -- at least in practice. You have, in effect, removed their right to abstain.
Let's say that John has violated some rule which leads some TalkBoard members to feel that he should be removed from office. John believes that he should not participate in this vote. Of the remaining 8 members, 5 favor having John removed, 2 oppose it, and 1 -- a close friend of John, abstains. If John also abstains, and you see that as voting, his will be the deciding vote and it will keep him on TalkBoard.
On the other hand, if John and his friend abstain but it is not seen as voting, he will be removed from TalkBoard by a 5-2 margin.
What this in effect does is give John and his friend the ability to block his removal while giving the pretense that they were not involved in the decision.
Jul 14, 2010 | 2:08 pm
#27
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This is precisely why I was careful with my "abstain" vote in this particular vote as I did not want it to be the deciding vote in favour or against the proposal. Once jackal was officially inducted as the 9th TalkBoard member, a single "abstain" vote is irrelevant.
However, if only 8 TalkBoard members were voting and 1 wished to abstain then there would be a difference between actually casting an "abstain" vote (6 "yes" votes still required to pass) versus simply choosing to abstain from voting (5 "yes" votes required to pass). The "abstain" vote has exactly the same value as a "no" vote in this case.
This is why the Guidelines should be amended to properly reflect the will of those voting, including those who wish to simply not pick a side.
Jul 14, 2010 | 2:09 pm
#28
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Let's say that John has violated some rule which leads some TalkBoard members to feel that he should be removed from office. John believes that he should not participate in this vote. Of the remaining 8 members, 5 favor having John removed, 2 oppose it, and 1 -- a close friend of John, abstains. If John also abstains, and you see that as voting, his will be the deciding vote and it will keep him on TalkBoard.
And I see it as sufficient if someone participates in the voting process. Thats how it is handled and valued.
Jul 14, 2010 | 2:18 pm
#29
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Decide now, when no other motion is being voted on, and TalkBoard will not be in a position where members are upset with each other because one side did not get what it feels it should (be that passage or defeat of a measure).
Do not put it off until such a time as when you will know who or what this decision will help and who or what it will hurt.
Jul 14, 2010 | 2:53 pm
#30
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And I agree with Dovster, Missy, and B747
The moon must be full somewhere.
The moon must be full somewhere.