Randy Petersen

submitted by Randy Petersen
For those candidates who are generally not aware, 87% of all actions by moderators to move, edit, close or merge a thread are rooted in the RBP from our general members. As well, to date for the year, there have been over 78,000 actions by our volunteers. That is more than 250 in an average day ... a super-majority of that being policing and managing the onslaught on spam and these unpaid volunteers contribute an average of 12 hours a week toward their moderator duties.

Given this background, what are your general thoughts that the TalkBoard doesn't provide direction of oversight for this group? Do you see the group as too small for the size of FlyerTalk, too large in numbers (around 80 total volunteers). Not a debate of specific actions but what do you think, church and state? Here's an open opportunity to put forth your general thoughts.

CMK10

Oh wow I'll be the first to answer.

Firstly I'd like to say that I have the greatest amount of respect for the moderators here. It's oftentimes a thankless job that results in resentment as well as a lot of extra work.

For my answer, I think we need more moderators. One of my platforms is that the ancilary forums here need moderation. Also, I feel some moderators are spread too thin having to cover more than one forum where conflicts of interest can arise. Finally, in some forums (Delta perhaps) proactive moderation is often needed. Therefore, I'd like to purpose open enrollment similar to Talkboard for more moderators. Why not have a call for moderators followed by vetting of the candidates?

gleff

I'll share my thoughts more generally later, but perhaps the link for "Volunteer" at the top of each page could be clearer or better promoted.

But there is currently a process for members to declare their interest and there is indeed a vetting of potential moderators.

The group has grown substantially, Randy mentions it is now nearly 80. I remember when it was Burkey and Craig6z (aka Moderator2 - they were initially added anonymously!). Then I think essxjay was added.

The mod corp has actually grown quite quickly, become much more consistent and professionalized, with standards, policies, procedures, and templates for action (many of which are described at the lin kabove). So while it's growing it also needs to grow arithmetically rather than geometrically in order to maintain consistency and culture to best service members.

But there are indeed plenty of opportunities for members to volunteer, as evidenced by the rapid growth in the moderator group and also by the number of forums without designated moderators currently.

As one of the group of senior moderators I receive Report Bad Post messages when a member flags a post as problematic in a forum without a designated moderator. And when there get to be a good bit from particular forums we raise our hand and flag the need for a new moderator.

But even then folks aren't just thrown into the role. That need for consistency and member service I mentioned earlier? New moderators are mentored by experienced ones before they're let loose in forums. That slows down the process but ensures that the new moderators are trained on the tools, procedures, and culture necessary to deliver a high quality moderation product to members.

Are there ever failures and mistakes? Of course there are. Members can appeal a decision to Randy, and he's acted on those appeals when necessary. And has it ever turned out that a moderator wasn't well-suited to the task, or perhaps that competing demands on their time overtook their ability to serve the community? Absolutely, and corrective actions get taken.

I'm sure plenty of members would call a given play differently, and I for one think that basic balls and strikes in baseball ought to be called by computer. But reasonable people can see the same thing differently, and as Randy observed most moderator action is about keeping the forums clean from spammer, and helping to direct members to information in the clearest way possible.

So I guess I've gone on longer than I intended. Ultimately there will be more moderators than there are now, more opportunities for members to contribute than there are now, but the driving force behind all of this needs to be quality and consistency of service delivered to the community as a whole.

As a TalkBoard member and as a moderator myself, I believe that it's not about justice towards me or fairness to any other moderator or TalkBoard member, it's always about what benefits the hundreds of thousands of members, posters, participants the most.

And the arithmetic growth approach does that best, to the extent it allows new volunteers to become acclimated better to consistent sets of guidelines and procedures and to be trained by experienced mentors.

Art234

First of all, my hat is off to the moderators on Flyer Talk. Having been a moderator on a much smaller board years ago, I can truly say it is a thankless job, and can be very time consuming. I have seen both good and bad moderation, and in my opinion, we have some of the most professional and consistent moderators of any site I frequent here.

At FT there is more of a process and organization to the moderating staff, which I feel contributes to the consistent performance of the mods. From specific training of new moderators to mentoring, and having senior moderators to oversee the others, this site has just about the best organized and staffed moderating team and system I have seen anywhere.

That said, this board has grown significantly over the years, and while some may feel that 80 moderators is enough, I say you have to grow to keep up with the number of forums we add as well as the growth in membership. It is very easy for moderators to burn out...and this is something the Talk Board and Admins have to consider when setting the number of moderators.

Flyer Talk is also somewhat unique in that while smaller boards are "governed" by one or two administrators, who basically lead the moderating staff, here we have the Talk Board, which is the governing body of the community. While I generally don't like the concept of moderating the moderators, I think the Talk Board can provide valuable direction to the moderating team, and can provide feedback and direction as necessary.
I think the board should be involved in setting of guidelines, forwarding member feedback and acting on it, and should be involved in setting the number of moderators who contribute to making this one of the best sites on the net bar none.

Finally, to the moderators and their supervisors here, GREAT JOB!!!! from one who knows what it's like....

Thanks.

aviators99

As a fairly new moderator (MilesBuzz! and Virgin America Elevate), I have recent experience in how things are going. I find the moderator guidelines and policies to be extremely professional, efficient, and fair, while leaving just the right amount of discretion to the moderators.

MilesBuzz! has quite a bit of spam, since it is usually the first forum that a new user sees. We have three moderators, and we are pretty busy. But it is not often that we step on each other's toes. I think that if you added another moderator to our forum, we would have a difficult time accomplishing what we've accomplished. We would need to move to some sort of timeslice scheduling, and that might be difficult. In the Virgin America Elevate forum, the traffic is low, and there isn't much to do.

My opinion is that FT has the right number of moderators, as it stands. As there is attrition, moderators need to be replaced, and I agree with gleff that the "volunteer" link needs to be more prominent.

As far as TalkBoard oversight of the moderators, I really don't see it as necessary. The "senior moderators" are rarely needed to step in, as it is (from what I can see so far).

Markie

I have to firstly declare that I am a Moderator in Star Alliance and Hyatt.

I have been a Moderator for several years now and been involved in the change that other candidates have mentioned. By having a clear set of processes the Moderation function on FT has become more transparent with clear borders and a range of sanctions, if needed.

Moderators are members first, although some other posters seem to feel that they have to set a higher standard. I personally think that every poster should think before they press Save.

Moderators give them time as a service to the community and for that they should be appreciated. It was proposed to have a joint meeting with TB and the Mods but this never happened - I would press for this to happen again as I think it would provide a useful focus for an exchange of views.

jackal

While I don't have tons of experience with outside forums, I have to say that, especially compared to how unruly some other boards can get, I've been very impressed with the professionalism and swiftness of the FlyerTalk moderating team in handling issues. I definitely appreciate the generosity of time given (especially since so many are virtually constantly on the road!) and rational mindset shown by each and every moderator. I actually have a great sense of awe and wonder at the job our moderators do, and the fact that they're not getting paid--well, that just says tons about each one's character.

So, do we need more? For the busier forums, I haven't come away with that impression. Each time I've RBPed, appropriate action has been taken swiftly, sometimes with a PMed "thank you" from the moderator. I have full faith and trust in the moderating team--if they wanted more assistance or more coverage to keep from getting overwhelmed, they'd no doubt bring that up to Randy. I do think there is value in having some proactive oversight of some of the smaller forums not covered by regular moderators instead of relying on RBPs, and, to that end, I would support adding some moderator positions for that purpose.

As for TalkBoard's lack of oversight of the moderating team, I respect FlyerTalk isn't (and probably shouldn't be) a democracy and that Randy can run this board any way he wants. However, while I fully respect the moderators and have never had an issue with them or their moderation style, personally, on principle, I would support a move giving members the right of appeal to a representative body, which TalkBoard is, and/or the right of that representative body to set policies when conflicts arise. Such a process would, of course, involve a great deal of dialog between the board and the moderating team to ensure all points of view are taken in and all policies are fully vetted.

While I would--with the current information I have--support it if such a motion were brought up, I wouldn't make that a huge issue, though: unless there is huge pent-up demand for such a motion (and if there is, I haven't seen it, except for by a vocal minority during last year's campaign) and I see a lot of members asking for it, I wouldn't push for it. I think the current system works well enough, and if a person has a serious problem, they can always bring the issue up to one of the senior moderators or Randy. I also understand that this is not something TalkBoard can just "do"--it can't vote itself more powers (and I'm actually surprised Randy asked this question)--but when Randy starts indicating he is ready to leave the helm of FlyerTalk, I would more strongly support taking a fresh look at this issue and bringing it to the attention of the FlyerTalk administration to ensure a fair infrastructure is in place for the future of FlyerTalk.

As always, my job would be to represent the community at large, and I will bring forward all reasonable points of view to the group and consider the merits of all arguments before finalizing my decision.

schley

Moderators are a must for any site and FT is the most moderated free site I have ever been a part of. Moderators are volunteers who probably donate more time than anyone else for the good of the order. I appreciate their willingness to read hours of, sometimes uninspiring posts, waiting to pounce into action. My hat is off to anyone who volunteers.

Having said that I mention one of my points of change I would like to see is LESS editiing or removing of posts by moderators. The job of a mod is to enforce the FT posting rules. I think they do a phenomenal job of taking down unwanted spam and intercede if a topic is going too far off topic most definately and this is needed. However on occasion I have experienced looking for one of my posts only to realize it has been removed by one of the moderators.

I think to myself, "what was wrong with that post?" I have to contact a mod and they give me an explanation for I don't want to jump to a complaint unless I don't agree with the explanation. I have agreed to disagree with several mod's on why a post of mine was edited or removed. I feel some posters abuse the report a bad post button and are overly sensitive about any sarcasm whatsoever. This site is someplace where posting sarcasm can lighten tension and allow members personalities to actually be seen. I feel that the posting can be limited to just facts and that projects a business like atmosphere.

I think some people take themselves and their FT personality too seriously. It is a website people relax! Hitting the report a bad post to notify a mod of some issue is great and should continue to be encouraged. However a data point, I have made 2 FRIENDLY jokes to other members but didn't include a smilie face, thus the posts were removed as the other members used the report a bad post button.

I have also had a post removed and a thread locked when I searched for a thread to put my comment in and found it, but it was removed for the moderator said I bumped an old thread. The information was just as valuable now as it was then, thus I saved the mod's some effort by merging it. We all love to say, "USE THE SEARCH BUTTON." When we do, it can be met with my response. There is a better way of the mod's time than my example for sure.

The atmosphere can be friendly although there are several posters who make it very stuffy and businesslike oftentimes, I would seek to empower a majority not a minority with regards to mod's action in this aspect.

Many of these issues are subjective and I think the mod's simply need a directive to lighten up on some moderating. It will save them some time and I think add a more welcoming atmosphere. They play a very important role and all efforts are appreciated. That is my personal opinion and one reason I wanted to run for the TB.

lucky9876coins

The moderators on FlyerTalk are among the most professional out there, typically very consistent, helpful, and professional. It really is a thankless job, especially when we account for all the spam behind the scenes that we never even see (thanks to their swift actions).

Are there certain cases where I disagree with moderator actions? Sure, I’m sure we all do. At the same time, I think they do a good job “policing” themselves in terms of issues and policies. Ultimately I think between the discussions the moderators have internally, the authority of the senior moderators, and of course Randy, I don’t think there’s a need for the TalkBoard to oversee anything related to moderation. I know that the senior moderators are always open to being approached with issues, and they’ll raise the issue to other moderators. The same goes for Randy. So when there is an issue, they’re reasonable folks to approach. They’re not the government.

MSY-MSP

I truly appreciate the enourmous amount of effort our moderators put in in helping keep FT the place that we all know an love. So to start, i will put a big thank-you into this post to all of our moderators.

turning now to the question at hand. I do not believe FT is overly moderated. Especially since some of the forums here do not have a dedicated moderator or that moderators often moderate more than one forum. That to me indicates that the population of moderators may be too small given the size of the community. Now i don't mean to imply that we need to grow the size of the moderators dramatically. I think we need to consider the amount of time the moderators are spending on moderating and also how they generally feel about the time commitment burden that the moderating is placing on them before any decision on adding or subtracting moderators should be made.

I think that as a whole the moderators have done a great job managing the forums here on Flyertalk. I think TalkBoard should make sure the moderators have the tools that they need to make sure that Flyertalk remains the quality place that it is. TalkBoard should listen to the moderators to understand the problems that they are having with respect to certain types of actions. Based on those problems, talkboard can step in and make/consider appropriate changes to Flyertalk that will help the moderators in their job.

This is my first cut at thinking about the question, and i will consider it some more and may add some more on this later.

worldwidedreamer

I feel that the present system works quite well. At the same time, I wonder whether it might be worth thinking about ways that we can make life easier for the moderators as FlyerTalk continues growing. Many other major online communities, like Slashdot, have a corps of dedicated moderators similar to FT today; helping these regular moderators experienced members of the community are periodically allowed to moderate posts for a few days. For FT, I would include members with at least 1,000 posts registered for at least a year with fewer than 1% of posts reported as bad. Expanding moderator access to include a larger percentage of the community would ensure that FT remains scalable as traffic grows. BTW, do people realize that Alexa says that the reach of FT has doubled in the past year?

RichMSN

I don't have a positive or negative view on moderation and moderators. I have a highly negative view on the selection process, however, this is merely personal.

I do know that at the same time people have complained that there aren't enough moderators that at least a few people who have been dedicated members of FlyerTalk (myself included) have been turned away from being moderators while others have 2 or more forums under their handle.

So, since this isn't something that anyone in charge really sees as a problem combined with the fact that moderation isn't something that Randy chooses to give the TalkBoard any say over, I don't see the point in including it in the debate, even though we do every year.

gleff

Well, the Republican candidate for governor here in Virginia has been running ads about the Democratic candidate's views on the federal government's role in health care reform. That's just politics I guess

LessO2

Let's look at the numbers here for some perspective.

Last Tuesday, October 29th, 2009, there were around 8,000 posts made in FT's ~150 forums. Using Randy's number of 250 actions per day. That equates to 3% of the posts requiring a moderator's attention.

The lack of direction or oversight is a good thing. The last thing moderators, and the users of FT to see, is micromanaging. There's a very good process in place for people who apply to be a moderator that's pretty clear in spelling out duties and expectations. Those guidelines have been established with a lot of time and experience built into them, so the current setup makes a lot of sense to me.

FT has 151 forums. Some are used heavier, some are not. For example, the UA Mileage Plus Forum, FT's most active forum, has four moderators. The Marriott Forum has one.

The way the question is posed, the number of moderators (and if you are one of them, thank you for your work) is more statistical to me. It's a simple placing of people where they need to be.

Thanks for the question.

B747-437B

I view FlyerTalk as having a tricameral governance system with TalkBoard serving as Legislative, Moderators as Judicial and Randy/IB as Executive branches respectively.

Moderators are among the most active and committed members of the community. They have volunteered their time to take on the thankless role of overseeing the actions of their friends and colleagues for the greater good of the community at large. Their commitment to their responsibilities is rarely brought into question.

That said, I am very strongly opposed to permitting people to hold multiple offices on FlyerTalk. Elected TalkBoard representatives should not also hold office as appointed Moderators. There is an inherent conflict of interest when the same entities hold both Legislative and Judicial power.

Furthermore, in a community that has built itself overwhelmingly on the back of valuable user contributions, it is ironic that we cannot find enough new voices to represent the community without turning to those who already wear other hats. Can a moderator truly claim to be representing the userbase at large on TalkBoard when their decision making is undoubtedly influenced by their concurrent moderation responsibilities?

I urge everyone not to vote for candidates who already hold office as appointed Moderators, unless they agree to relinquish that role during their term as elected TalkBoard representative. This is not an attack on the Moderator candidates nor on the concept of moderation itself. It is merely a genuinely felt belief that it is not reflective of the best interests of the community for so much inflence to be concentrated in the hands of a few, no matter how well meaning they may be.

Disclaimer : I served a number of years as a Moderator on FlyerTalk, but was relieved of my volunteer responsibilities last year for refusing to accept new internal governance policies that I felt were unneccessary.