Suggestion not to perceive constructive suggestions as attack or doomsday forecasting
Nov 1, 2004 | 10:38 am
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Suggestion not to perceive constructive suggestions as attack or doomsday forecasting
This is a reply to Randy's post from the TalkBoard forum here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showt...78#post3343578
I was asked to re-post this in the Suggestions forum instead as it was considered inappropriate for the TalkBoard forum, so I am doing this hereby
.
This was the original post:
Randy, with all due respect (and a lot of it is due ), I think stating that a member made a "scene" by stating that he considers to quit posting and stating that this outweighs all positive contributions (as one might have to understand it) from several years on Flyertalk is not a presentation of fact, but an opinion (ultimately, the only opinion that really matters on Flyertalk, but still an opinion ). But that is not the point of my post, so I will only write this in verrry small letters 
.
Randy, you have absolutely no reason to be embarrassed by your point of view of Flyertalk. It is great, and having brought it to where it is now is a fantastic achievement. I worked for a few years for an Internet portal which had about 30 million registered members and billions of page views every week, so I know a little bit about these user statistics. The statistics for Flyertalk are really impressive, its growth has been phenomenal, and its usefulness and attractiveness to people around the world is undisputed.
From a business perspective, I think you would not need to care about what you might perceive as individual members making an annoying scene that takes up your time, other than, well, being annoyed by it. You might or might not need to care about having consistent member and moderation guidelines - I think that even from a business perspective, it makes sense to care about this.
But I want to address something else in your post. Yes, from a business perspective, Flyertalk has become so big and established (network effects) that I believe any individual contributor can and will be replaced, without Flyertalk's growth as a whole being significantly affected. Still, Flyertalk is also a community. And in this community, for the forums I visit (miles and points), I can easily name you the top five contributors for each of those forums. And these top five for each forum are a large part of the reason why so many people come here. A lot of them are moderators ^. Do these contributors have a right to expect anything in return? At first sight: No, I think they already get more than enough by being able to be part of the overall community. Well, but there is one thing that I think they should be able to expect: To be treated fairly and consistently. Part of this would be that it is ensured that moderation is fair and consistent, which I believe (and this is why I think this part of the post is relevant to the forum) is an issue that should be picked up in the TalkBoard. Another part is that if venues are offered to members where it is promised that they will be listened to (and members often get told "if you don't like it, write to Randy"), an indication that they did indeed get listened to would be very nice .
I think one should not confuse attempts to help to improve the community with doomsday forecasting.
This line of argumentation - and again, I say this with the greatest respect, and I hope nobody will see this as an attack - sounds a bit to me like someone answering complaints about individual cases of police abuse with "Yes, but 99 % of the population are happy and 99.9 % of the police never abused anyone and only ten people have ever complained about police abuse, so why do I need to address this? We live in a great country full of happy people!" If this was true - would a government still need to address individual cases of abuse and try to develop a framework of guidelines and perhaps checks and balances to prevent them from happening in the future? I would think so.
Again, I have nothing but respect for you and the great achievement you have produced with Flyertalk. But I have also (from your posts and mails) gotten to know you as open-minded enough to not only want people who will say yes to everything and never disagree with you. Therefore, I trust that you will see that this post is neither meant to be doomsday forecasting nor an attack on anyone, but merely an attempt to present the view that believing Flyertalk is great and at the same time trying to present ideas on how to still address certain issues is not a contradiction.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showt...78#post3343578
I was asked to re-post this in the Suggestions forum instead as it was considered inappropriate for the TalkBoard forum, so I am doing this hereby
.This was the original post:
Originally Posted by Randy Petersen
I hope a few of you don't mind if i chime in here. I'm likely to say a few things that some of you may take personally, but is assue you that is not my intent. My intent is simply to present a few 'facts.'
I view this thread similar to the antics of those members who from time-to-time seem to need to attract attention to "quitting" FlyerTalk. Can they simply discontinue posting? Apparently not without making a scene, and in some cases, it is clearly a bigger 'scene' than they made why contributing to FlyerTalk.
I view this thread similar to the antics of those members who from time-to-time seem to need to attract attention to "quitting" FlyerTalk. Can they simply discontinue posting? Apparently not without making a scene, and in some cases, it is clearly a bigger 'scene' than they made why contributing to FlyerTalk.
), I think stating that a member made a "scene" by stating that he considers to quit posting and stating that this outweighs all positive contributions (as one might have to understand it) from several years on Flyertalk is not a presentation of fact, but an opinion (ultimately, the only opinion that really matters on Flyertalk, but still an opinion ). But that is not the point of my post, so I will only write this in verrry small letters .
Originally Posted by Randy Petersen
My point-of-view (and it may likely disconnect from yours) is this is one of those 'doom and gloom' threads. Things are so bad around here, everyone is so depressed, and everyone is in harms way of FlyerTalk being ripped apart. Again, simply what I am reading from this.
At the start, i said I'd just point out some facts. Your emotions, your bias, your involvement may view these differently than I do, but nonetheless, it might be something for you to try and connect with. This thred is two days old and it has attracted 660 (?) page views during this time. In the last two days on FlyerTalk, we have experienced nearly 11.5 million - yes MILLION page views from the members and lurkers on this Web site. Would please step back for just a second and tell me how 660 compares to amost 12 million. Take out your calculator and do this math. In my mind, the overwhelming - and the math is very compelling on this - number of members of FlyerTalk seem to be content and focused on getting their information about miles, points and travel from FlyerTalk. As well during these two days, there were 12 members who posted on this page. During the very same two days, we had a total of 102,313 visitors to FlyerTalk - members and lurkers combined. Again, I invite you to do the math.
OK, I accept that this issue may be a real concern to some of you, but frankly, i think your public doom and gloom is not a realistic view. I compleletely understand that you do not see this side of FlyerTalk as I do, but I hope you understand that I do not completely see this side of FlyerTalk that you are referring to. And if I did, what might I see - a group of members, probably less than 50 in total, telling me that the sky is falling. Call me an optomist. Call me living in a world of rose-colored glasses, but at least respect that my point-of-view is formed by the facts - that an overwhelming number of members of this board are rather enjoying it.
(...)
I did think about closing this thread, but you know what, it may tell more about a few of you if i left it open and you continue with your doomsday forcasting. I'm not embarassed by my point-of-view of FlyerTalk.
(...)
At the start, i said I'd just point out some facts. Your emotions, your bias, your involvement may view these differently than I do, but nonetheless, it might be something for you to try and connect with. This thred is two days old and it has attracted 660 (?) page views during this time. In the last two days on FlyerTalk, we have experienced nearly 11.5 million - yes MILLION page views from the members and lurkers on this Web site. Would please step back for just a second and tell me how 660 compares to amost 12 million. Take out your calculator and do this math. In my mind, the overwhelming - and the math is very compelling on this - number of members of FlyerTalk seem to be content and focused on getting their information about miles, points and travel from FlyerTalk. As well during these two days, there were 12 members who posted on this page. During the very same two days, we had a total of 102,313 visitors to FlyerTalk - members and lurkers combined. Again, I invite you to do the math.
OK, I accept that this issue may be a real concern to some of you, but frankly, i think your public doom and gloom is not a realistic view. I compleletely understand that you do not see this side of FlyerTalk as I do, but I hope you understand that I do not completely see this side of FlyerTalk that you are referring to. And if I did, what might I see - a group of members, probably less than 50 in total, telling me that the sky is falling. Call me an optomist. Call me living in a world of rose-colored glasses, but at least respect that my point-of-view is formed by the facts - that an overwhelming number of members of this board are rather enjoying it.
(...)
I did think about closing this thread, but you know what, it may tell more about a few of you if i left it open and you continue with your doomsday forcasting. I'm not embarassed by my point-of-view of FlyerTalk.
(...)
Randy, you have absolutely no reason to be embarrassed by your point of view of Flyertalk. It is great, and having brought it to where it is now is a fantastic achievement. I worked for a few years for an Internet portal which had about 30 million registered members and billions of page views every week, so I know a little bit about these user statistics. The statistics for Flyertalk are really impressive, its growth has been phenomenal, and its usefulness and attractiveness to people around the world is undisputed.
From a business perspective, I think you would not need to care about what you might perceive as individual members making an annoying scene that takes up your time, other than, well, being annoyed by it. You might or might not need to care about having consistent member and moderation guidelines - I think that even from a business perspective, it makes sense to care about this.
But I want to address something else in your post. Yes, from a business perspective, Flyertalk has become so big and established (network effects) that I believe any individual contributor can and will be replaced, without Flyertalk's growth as a whole being significantly affected. Still, Flyertalk is also a community. And in this community, for the forums I visit (miles and points), I can easily name you the top five contributors for each of those forums. And these top five for each forum are a large part of the reason why so many people come here. A lot of them are moderators ^. Do these contributors have a right to expect anything in return? At first sight: No, I think they already get more than enough by being able to be part of the overall community. Well, but there is one thing that I think they should be able to expect: To be treated fairly and consistently. Part of this would be that it is ensured that moderation is fair and consistent, which I believe (and this is why I think this part of the post is relevant to the forum) is an issue that should be picked up in the TalkBoard. Another part is that if venues are offered to members where it is promised that they will be listened to (and members often get told "if you don't like it, write to Randy"), an indication that they did indeed get listened to would be very nice .
I think one should not confuse attempts to help to improve the community with doomsday forecasting.
This line of argumentation - and again, I say this with the greatest respect, and I hope nobody will see this as an attack - sounds a bit to me like someone answering complaints about individual cases of police abuse with "Yes, but 99 % of the population are happy and 99.9 % of the police never abused anyone and only ten people have ever complained about police abuse, so why do I need to address this? We live in a great country full of happy people!" If this was true - would a government still need to address individual cases of abuse and try to develop a framework of guidelines and perhaps checks and balances to prevent them from happening in the future? I would think so.
Again, I have nothing but respect for you and the great achievement you have produced with Flyertalk. But I have also (from your posts and mails) gotten to know you as open-minded enough to not only want people who will say yes to everything and never disagree with you. Therefore, I trust that you will see that this post is neither meant to be doomsday forecasting nor an attack on anyone, but merely an attempt to present the view that believing Flyertalk is great and at the same time trying to present ideas on how to still address certain issues is not a contradiction.
Last edited by Football Fan; Nov 1, 2004 at 12:11 pm
Nov 1, 2004 | 10:47 am
#2
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As soon as we get humans out of the moderation loop, things will be more fair and consistent.
Nov 1, 2004 | 10:55 am
#3
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Originally Posted by skofarrell
As soon as we get humans out of the moderation loop, things will be more fair and consistent.
.Your statement is true, and it is human to err - for anyone, member, moderator, whoever.
But just saying "moderators are humans, they will err, deal with it/live with it" is not a convincing argument, I think. There are possible measures to help humans - members and moderators - err less, so that less disagreements and trouble occur.
Nov 1, 2004 | 1:57 pm
#4
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Originally Posted by attorney28
But just saying "moderators are humans, they will err, deal with it/live with it" is not a convincing argument, I think. There are possible measures to help humans - members and moderators - err less, so that less disagreements and trouble occur.
Nov 1, 2004 | 2:28 pm
#5
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Originally Posted by ClueByFour
We have those measures. It's remarkable how much quieter things have been around here (see Randy's discussion of the miniscule number of members making the maximum amount of off-topic noise) in the past week or so. The measures already work as advertised.
Or is "fair" the goal to achieve?
Something to think about.
Nov 2, 2004 | 7:30 pm
#6
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Oh good grief - here we go again. 'Nuf said. Dead horse springs to mind.
But let me take you back 18 mths ago (and even now)... to when I first came onto FT, I didn't really notice (and still don't for the most part) someone's verbiage underneath their handle - or even their post count - unless something they've said makes me go 'whow' - one way or the other (good or bad) - then I might scroll to the left to see handle, verbiage, postcount etc, and might somewhat make a judgement call, saying oh yeah I saw that person's posts before - they're right on (or not) etc & base my input/decisions/agreement or disagreement w/ them.
I also (if they do it enough) go oh - there's such and such harping on that topic again - and before anyone takes that the wrong way 'that topic' can be something as simple as upgrades, food, awards, non-elite before elite, etc - not just talkboard & orp (novel thought).
So - bottom line is your posts speak for you (generic you) - and that's both good & bad. Some are viewed as adding value; some are another ax to grind (whatever the topic).
Speaking OFM, I don't have a big problem w/ moderators as others do, and I think for the most part free discussion is encouraged here. And before someone jumps on the 'most part', what I mean is when someone goes on & on & on & on & on & on re: a topic & others chime in saying they don't agree & then the on & on & on person tries to turn it around as they're the wronged party & the others aren't, I say - hey, go back to points & miles
Cheers. Sharon
But let me take you back 18 mths ago (and even now)... to when I first came onto FT, I didn't really notice (and still don't for the most part) someone's verbiage underneath their handle - or even their post count - unless something they've said makes me go 'whow' - one way or the other (good or bad) - then I might scroll to the left to see handle, verbiage, postcount etc, and might somewhat make a judgement call, saying oh yeah I saw that person's posts before - they're right on (or not) etc & base my input/decisions/agreement or disagreement w/ them.
I also (if they do it enough) go oh - there's such and such harping on that topic again - and before anyone takes that the wrong way 'that topic' can be something as simple as upgrades, food, awards, non-elite before elite, etc - not just talkboard & orp (novel thought).
So - bottom line is your posts speak for you (generic you) - and that's both good & bad. Some are viewed as adding value; some are another ax to grind (whatever the topic).
Speaking OFM, I don't have a big problem w/ moderators as others do, and I think for the most part free discussion is encouraged here. And before someone jumps on the 'most part', what I mean is when someone goes on & on & on & on & on & on re: a topic & others chime in saying they don't agree & then the on & on & on person tries to turn it around as they're the wronged party & the others aren't, I say - hey, go back to points & miles
Cheers. Sharon