FlyerTalk is not the same anymore, and here are my suggestions
Mar 1, 2002 | 4:01 pm
#1
Original Poster
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: source of weird and eccentric ideas
Posts: 40,069
FlyerTalk is not the same anymore, and here are my suggestions
1. There are too many forums on Flyertalk.
2. There are too many pages where these forums are listed.
3. FlyerTalk is not an umbrella site for all things travel, although this is something that Randy might wish it was. It is a focused site for a community of frequent flyers and all things important to them. Umbrella sites never work, they fragment into separate sites, each with more specific focus.
4. Put all the major forums on one page. MileBuzz, TravelBuzz, General Traveltalk, OMNI, etc. I'll call this the FlyerTalk Main Page.
5. Take away all the tiny, infrequently used forums from the Main Page. Put them on another page.
6. Do not arbitrarily move perfectly good and interesting threads to some "misposted threads" forum. That is insulting to people who have taken a lot of time and trouble to post in the first place.
FlyerTalk will be more fun, and have more contributions this way.
It will thrive and flourish.
2. There are too many pages where these forums are listed.
3. FlyerTalk is not an umbrella site for all things travel, although this is something that Randy might wish it was. It is a focused site for a community of frequent flyers and all things important to them. Umbrella sites never work, they fragment into separate sites, each with more specific focus.
4. Put all the major forums on one page. MileBuzz, TravelBuzz, General Traveltalk, OMNI, etc. I'll call this the FlyerTalk Main Page.
5. Take away all the tiny, infrequently used forums from the Main Page. Put them on another page.
6. Do not arbitrarily move perfectly good and interesting threads to some "misposted threads" forum. That is insulting to people who have taken a lot of time and trouble to post in the first place.
FlyerTalk will be more fun, and have more contributions this way.
It will thrive and flourish.
Mar 2, 2002 | 10:25 am
#2
Original Poster
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: source of weird and eccentric ideas
Posts: 40,069
And, a big problem with the current design is navigation. It is incredibly difficult to go from one forum to another if the forums are on different pages.
When you are in a forum, you cannot readily jump to another FT page (a page that has other forums in it.) You need to get out of the forum in order to produce the pull-down menu that lets you then jump to another page and then you need to find the forum you are interested in at that point.
This is, to paraphrase, "heavy and awkward."
People come to FT for community. The most popular forums get more and more traffic, which is good.
There are too many forums that are infrequently trafficked, and these distract from what is great about FT. These should disappear by being consolidated. When the new, consolidated forum becomes too busy with threads that are clearly differentiatable, then is the time to split the forum into two, but not into 20 or 100.
This is because of the "network effect," the well known principle that as more people communicate with each other in a single medium (forum), the value of that forum goes up very quickly with each additional person. Conversely, as the forums are split too many ways, each new forum suffers from the network effect in reverse, and can cause the whole thing to stagnate.
When you are in a forum, you cannot readily jump to another FT page (a page that has other forums in it.) You need to get out of the forum in order to produce the pull-down menu that lets you then jump to another page and then you need to find the forum you are interested in at that point.
This is, to paraphrase, "heavy and awkward."
People come to FT for community. The most popular forums get more and more traffic, which is good.
There are too many forums that are infrequently trafficked, and these distract from what is great about FT. These should disappear by being consolidated. When the new, consolidated forum becomes too busy with threads that are clearly differentiatable, then is the time to split the forum into two, but not into 20 or 100.
This is because of the "network effect," the well known principle that as more people communicate with each other in a single medium (forum), the value of that forum goes up very quickly with each additional person. Conversely, as the forums are split too many ways, each new forum suffers from the network effect in reverse, and can cause the whole thing to stagnate.
Mar 2, 2002 | 10:53 am
#3
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SAN Diego (Hillcrest); formerly LEXington, KY; still like the nym
Programs: DL Platinum; Marriott Lifetime Platinum; married to Hilton Elite
Posts: 3,029
Good luck.
I've micturated into this wind before.
I've micturated into this wind before.
Mar 2, 2002 | 11:29 am
#4
In Memoriam
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Seattle
Programs: Ephesians 4:31-32
Posts: 10,690
Agreed, I know several people who have recently departed FT making statements like, "It just isn't any fun anymore".
I realize we are too big now days to have almost all discussions in the BUZZ, which is how it was when I joined, but it has now become unnatural and cumbersome.
I realize we are too big now days to have almost all discussions in the BUZZ, which is how it was when I joined, but it has now become unnatural and cumbersome.
Mar 2, 2002 | 2:28 pm
#5
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Always on vacation
Programs: aa exp - spg gold - Hyatt Diamond - HH Gold
Posts: 6,007
When I was a lurker here in the last century major discussions began over the creation of the travelbuzz section. And to paraphrase those discussions some stated FT would end up becoming just a travel forum for some and take away from the "frequent flyer" emphasis.
And if one goes to the section of FT where the travel forums are that is exactly what it is. A travel forum minus the "frequent flyer" emphasis. I like going to the travel forums but I do not have enough free time to do it every day or twice a day as I do the MilesBuzz! forum.
What was happening in the anachary that was predominating in the MilesBuzz (and I use anachary in a perjorative way in this context) was that one was unable to glean anything that was useful from a "frequent flyer" emphasis than was possible on a limited amount of time.
What this reminds me of is the "disagreements" that took place between the cable users and the modems users of what should be posted. But this goes beyond this when one has a limited amount of time (after all I have had cable connection since it went into beta) There is no way to overcome that.
If you have an unlimited amount of time then for sure you can look at everything but if your time is limited than for sure you want to look at specific things.
On Saturdays I have more time and will go leisurely looking at the Travel forums, Dining forums and other forums that I do not look at on a daily basis.
But if I see another discussion whining and complaining about security in MilesBuzz or Which Airline has the Prettiest Flight Attendants in Community I for one am going to get airsick.
Once again I applaud Randy, his staff and the volunteers for making these changes by enforcing the Forum descriptions.
[This message has been edited by magic111 (edited 03-02-2002).]
And if one goes to the section of FT where the travel forums are that is exactly what it is. A travel forum minus the "frequent flyer" emphasis. I like going to the travel forums but I do not have enough free time to do it every day or twice a day as I do the MilesBuzz! forum.
What was happening in the anachary that was predominating in the MilesBuzz (and I use anachary in a perjorative way in this context) was that one was unable to glean anything that was useful from a "frequent flyer" emphasis than was possible on a limited amount of time.
What this reminds me of is the "disagreements" that took place between the cable users and the modems users of what should be posted. But this goes beyond this when one has a limited amount of time (after all I have had cable connection since it went into beta) There is no way to overcome that.
If you have an unlimited amount of time then for sure you can look at everything but if your time is limited than for sure you want to look at specific things.
On Saturdays I have more time and will go leisurely looking at the Travel forums, Dining forums and other forums that I do not look at on a daily basis.
But if I see another discussion whining and complaining about security in MilesBuzz or Which Airline has the Prettiest Flight Attendants in Community I for one am going to get airsick.
Once again I applaud Randy, his staff and the volunteers for making these changes by enforcing the Forum descriptions.
[This message has been edited by magic111 (edited 03-02-2002).]
Mar 5, 2002 | 10:02 am
#6
Founder of FlyerTalk
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 6,540
Let me take a stab at this:
1. There are too many forums on Flyertalk.
There are over 100 programs worldwide
2. There are too many pages where these forums are listed.
Last count there are only 4 pages: Miles, Travel, Dining, Airports. Let's remember, there are some 900,000 posts.
3. FlyerTalk is not an umbrella site for all things travel, although this is something that Randy might wish it was. It is a focused site for a community of frequent flyers and all things important to them. Umbrella sites never work, they fragment into separate sites, each with more specific focus.
Actually I think you might be mistaking my wishes. I started a board to talk about my favorite topic, miles and points. It was the members who wanted OMNI, the members who wanted a general Travel talk area, members who wanted dining, etc. Members who wanted to express an opinion about more than miles and points. Just look around at the threads posted today. And they also want a job posting board, etc. As any area grows, there is a natural tendency to surround it with like content. An unbrella? Go ask successful companies like Fodors.com, Yahoo! Travel and AOL Travel why they have the number of similar forums that we do. Also, ask Zagat's why they are moving from the restaurant review space to movies.
4. Put all the major forums on one page. MileBuzz, TravelBuzz, General Traveltalk, OMNI, etc. I'll call this the FlyerTalk Main Page.
Not you or anyone else hopes for the next extention of FlyerTalk the way we do. It involves creating 'My FlyerTalk' where you will choose which forums you want on your own personal page. This feature is not yet available on the systems we use and those it is available on is very cost prohibitive (estimates range that such a solution for our traffic would run about $300,000 - not bad but remember, you pay nothing financially for the privilege of enjoying FlyerTalk. However, as soon as this is possible for us, i will invest in it.
5. Take away all the tiny, infrequently used forums from the Main Page. Put them on another page.
Tiny infrequently used? I remember when we started, MileageRun was a tiny infrequently used forum, same with SPAM, and a host of others. What you might view as tiny happens to be important to a smaller group of people, but important nonetheless. What we have found is that if you wait until they are big enough, then you have members gripping that you are changing things. If you wait until they are big enough you lose thier focus since you cannot always move select threads to a new destination. The world is much bigger than American, United and Marriott and I'm actually glad we know the difference.
[b]6. Do not arbitrarily move perfectly good and interesting threads to some "misposted threads" forum. That is insulting to people who have taken a lot of time and trouble to post in the first place.[/b[
Insulting to people who have taken the time and trouble to post in the first place? Consider if you will the insult to those who volunteer their unpaid time to trying to keep each forum focused on exactly what the sign says it is. I will argue until i'm blue in the face if you think i insulted a member because i decided that the thread about fat, obese passengers didn't belong on the MilesBuzz! forum. I find it absolute amazing that members think we're always wrong in these actions. In the early days, a small group of people founded FlyerTalk. As far as moving things, we sometimes feel like parents picking up after their teenage kids who could care less that someone else is doing the laundry for them. Remember, if you posted something in the correct forum to begin with, you'd never have to wonder where it was. Strange....but true.
Hope this helps address a few of your wonders.
1. There are too many forums on Flyertalk.
There are over 100 programs worldwide
2. There are too many pages where these forums are listed.
Last count there are only 4 pages: Miles, Travel, Dining, Airports. Let's remember, there are some 900,000 posts.
3. FlyerTalk is not an umbrella site for all things travel, although this is something that Randy might wish it was. It is a focused site for a community of frequent flyers and all things important to them. Umbrella sites never work, they fragment into separate sites, each with more specific focus.
Actually I think you might be mistaking my wishes. I started a board to talk about my favorite topic, miles and points. It was the members who wanted OMNI, the members who wanted a general Travel talk area, members who wanted dining, etc. Members who wanted to express an opinion about more than miles and points. Just look around at the threads posted today. And they also want a job posting board, etc. As any area grows, there is a natural tendency to surround it with like content. An unbrella? Go ask successful companies like Fodors.com, Yahoo! Travel and AOL Travel why they have the number of similar forums that we do. Also, ask Zagat's why they are moving from the restaurant review space to movies.
4. Put all the major forums on one page. MileBuzz, TravelBuzz, General Traveltalk, OMNI, etc. I'll call this the FlyerTalk Main Page.
Not you or anyone else hopes for the next extention of FlyerTalk the way we do. It involves creating 'My FlyerTalk' where you will choose which forums you want on your own personal page. This feature is not yet available on the systems we use and those it is available on is very cost prohibitive (estimates range that such a solution for our traffic would run about $300,000 - not bad but remember, you pay nothing financially for the privilege of enjoying FlyerTalk. However, as soon as this is possible for us, i will invest in it.
5. Take away all the tiny, infrequently used forums from the Main Page. Put them on another page.
Tiny infrequently used? I remember when we started, MileageRun was a tiny infrequently used forum, same with SPAM, and a host of others. What you might view as tiny happens to be important to a smaller group of people, but important nonetheless. What we have found is that if you wait until they are big enough, then you have members gripping that you are changing things. If you wait until they are big enough you lose thier focus since you cannot always move select threads to a new destination. The world is much bigger than American, United and Marriott and I'm actually glad we know the difference.
[b]6. Do not arbitrarily move perfectly good and interesting threads to some "misposted threads" forum. That is insulting to people who have taken a lot of time and trouble to post in the first place.[/b[
Insulting to people who have taken the time and trouble to post in the first place? Consider if you will the insult to those who volunteer their unpaid time to trying to keep each forum focused on exactly what the sign says it is. I will argue until i'm blue in the face if you think i insulted a member because i decided that the thread about fat, obese passengers didn't belong on the MilesBuzz! forum. I find it absolute amazing that members think we're always wrong in these actions. In the early days, a small group of people founded FlyerTalk. As far as moving things, we sometimes feel like parents picking up after their teenage kids who could care less that someone else is doing the laundry for them. Remember, if you posted something in the correct forum to begin with, you'd never have to wonder where it was. Strange....but true.
Hope this helps address a few of your wonders.
Mar 5, 2002 | 10:57 am
#7
Original Poster
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: source of weird and eccentric ideas
Posts: 40,069
Thank you, Randy for the extensive answers. I love FlyerTalk and have been hanging out since mid-1999 so I have seen a lot of progress and I spend a lot of quality time here. I appreciate having FlyerTalk, it is an incredible phenomenon and I thank you for creating hosting and running it.
My comments:
1. As an entrepreneur, I can understand not wanting to make an investment in a "my flyertalk" concept.
2. The biggest issue that could be handled easily I would think is the difficulty of navigating from one forum to another forum if that forum is on another page. The drop-down that lets you do this does not appear until you drop out of a forum and go up a few levels. This makes it very awkward and uninviting to post on other pages and to flip from a forum on one page to a forum on another. The "jump to" only lists forums on the current page so that doesn't help either.
3. By small forums, I mean a lot of smaller programs, airport-specific forums, etc., easy to spot given the low number of posts.
Solution: I think it is best to split a busy, mixed-up forum into two parts rather than into many parts. 100 forums is a lot.
Everyone likes to hang out with the crowds. Forums that can't create a crowd should be consolidated.
I firmly beleive that this makes FlyerTalk much better, increases activity and time spent on it and hooks people even more.
My comments:
1. As an entrepreneur, I can understand not wanting to make an investment in a "my flyertalk" concept.
2. The biggest issue that could be handled easily I would think is the difficulty of navigating from one forum to another forum if that forum is on another page. The drop-down that lets you do this does not appear until you drop out of a forum and go up a few levels. This makes it very awkward and uninviting to post on other pages and to flip from a forum on one page to a forum on another. The "jump to" only lists forums on the current page so that doesn't help either.
3. By small forums, I mean a lot of smaller programs, airport-specific forums, etc., easy to spot given the low number of posts.
Solution: I think it is best to split a busy, mixed-up forum into two parts rather than into many parts. 100 forums is a lot.
Everyone likes to hang out with the crowds. Forums that can't create a crowd should be consolidated.
I firmly beleive that this makes FlyerTalk much better, increases activity and time spent on it and hooks people even more.
Mar 5, 2002 | 2:16 pm
#8
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: CH-3823 Wengen Switzerland
Programs: miles&more, MileagePlus
Posts: 27,043
FlyerTalk is not the same anymore, and here are my suggestions
* FlyerTalk changes (and still grows) every day, since the beginning, I like that
* Never had I the opportunity to meet/greet (in person, all over the world) so many FlyerTalk persons/friends as now and hopefully even more in the future - I like that
* the some time introduced concept of 4 pages, slowly but surely (at least the second page now: Travel) starts to work (look at the number of posts on page two lately). I like that
* I consider page 3 (airports) and for 4 (dining) not to be intended for heavy posting/discussions, but as a Vademecum to look up, if interested. I like that (to page 4 I would add hotels, so that anyone else again and again interested in the London Hilton hotels could just look it up there).
* I don't like the flames and the fights about having the last word. But I like what seems to be underway now, the introduction of moderators. I like that
* FlyerTalk changes (and still grows) every day, since the beginning, I like that
* Never had I the opportunity to meet/greet (in person, all over the world) so many FlyerTalk persons/friends as now and hopefully even more in the future - I like that
* the some time introduced concept of 4 pages, slowly but surely (at least the second page now: Travel) starts to work (look at the number of posts on page two lately). I like that
* I consider page 3 (airports) and for 4 (dining) not to be intended for heavy posting/discussions, but as a Vademecum to look up, if interested. I like that (to page 4 I would add hotels, so that anyone else again and again interested in the London Hilton hotels could just look it up there).
* I don't like the flames and the fights about having the last word. But I like what seems to be underway now, the introduction of moderators. I like that
Mar 6, 2002 | 10:41 am
#9
Founder of FlyerTalk
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 6,540
Thanks Richard, i think we really agree. I see what you are saying about the drop down menu. Let me ask the tech guys if that is something we can hack, create or change and offer. Maybe there is a simple solution right here in your comments - thanks. And for the MyFlyerTalk - I will invest in that and hope to make it sooner than later since i want to use it myself.
As for all other things - I want to support and make available to all members the features and benefits of FlyerTalk that make our very good member Rudi - "like that", FlyerTalk. The magic and value of FlyerTalk is really quite simple - people and information. Thanks again to all, and yes Rudi, we "like that" as well.
As for all other things - I want to support and make available to all members the features and benefits of FlyerTalk that make our very good member Rudi - "like that", FlyerTalk. The magic and value of FlyerTalk is really quite simple - people and information. Thanks again to all, and yes Rudi, we "like that" as well.
Mar 6, 2002 | 1:01 pm
#10
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Always on vacation
Programs: aa exp - spg gold - Hyatt Diamond - HH Gold
Posts: 6,007
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The magic and value of FlyerTalk is really quite simple - people and information.</font>
Some time ago someone pointed out how to simply make a 'MyFlyerTalk' on your own computer. Could not find the link but will give the directions again as it is something that I did.
1) Create a FlyerTalk folder in 'Favorites'
2) Place links to Forums that you wish to go to in folder. I actually have mine arranged in order of where I want to go to first and a simple drag will rearrange the order.
So I have forums in "MyFlyerTalk" folder (I am going to rename it as soon as I post) from both FlyerTalk Miles & FlyerTalk Travel.
Mar 7, 2002 | 2:44 pm
#12
Original Poster
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: source of weird and eccentric ideas
Posts: 40,069
Thanks, Randy, this is a great improvement!!
Mar 7, 2002 | 4:12 pm
#13
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Manhattan, NY
Programs: USAir AA Hilton
Posts: 3,567
Looooove the new hyperlinks!
Mar 9, 2002 | 12:28 pm
#14
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 6,932
This looks like a good place to remind people who haven't yet discovered it of a neat navigational trick.
You can open forums and posts with SHIFT+click instead of just clicking (in IE). This creates a new window. When you're finished reading, just close the window and you're instantly back at the table of contents.
It takes a bit of getting used to but it's MUCH faster.
Randy, I love what you've done to create this community and back you 100%.
You can open forums and posts with SHIFT+click instead of just clicking (in IE). This creates a new window. When you're finished reading, just close the window and you're instantly back at the table of contents.
It takes a bit of getting used to but it's MUCH faster.
Randy, I love what you've done to create this community and back you 100%.
Mar 10, 2002 | 10:14 am
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by QuietLion:
...a neat navigational trick.</font>
...a neat navigational trick.</font>
Very cool.
Now I wonder if I will spend less time on FT getting through my usually visited forums or if I will end up visiting more forums in the same amount of time.
