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Alternatives to LHR for RTW trip...

Alternatives to LHR for RTW trip...

Old Jun 4, 03, 12:00 am
  #1  
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Alternatives to LHR for RTW trip...

Hello everyone,
The Star RTW has the one stopover per city rule...I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions to side step that rule if I wanted to return back to London a second stopover

So far a friend has suggested to fly back to Manchester and train/bus to London instead of LHR when I return for a second stopover...

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Thanks

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Old Jun 4, 03, 12:31 am
  #2  
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I am not sure if this a practical suggestion, but besides LHR there are LCY, LGW & STN in Greater London. If you find *A operated flights to/from there, maybe this is another option for you.
 
Old Jun 4, 03, 3:25 am
  #3  
 
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It really depends where you were flying from... in the UK *A fly into

Aberdeen ABZ
Birmingham BHX
Belfast BHD
East Midlands EMA
Edinburgh EDI
Glasgow GLA
Jersey JER
Leeds Bradford LBA
London City LCY
London Heathrow LHR
Manchester MAN
Norwich NWI
Newcastle NCL
Teesside MME

Most of these fly to LHR, which could be done outside of your RTW.
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Old Jun 4, 03, 4:45 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Patron:
I am not sure if this a practical suggestion, but besides LHR there are LCY, LGW & STN in Greater London. If you find *A operated flights to/from there, maybe this is another option for you. </font>
I quite certain that these are considered "City Pairs" (as are JFK, EWR, LGA) and therefore count as London for stopover calcualtions.

veracocha - Can you give us an idea of your intended routing and places you might want to see in the UK? bmi have some very cheap Internet fares available that you could use. For example you could do:-

LAX-LHR (Stopover)
LHR-EDI (stopover)
EDI-MAN (Stopover)

Buy a cheap MAN-LHR-MAN return (on bmi or Virgin Trains) giving you a second London "stopover."

I'm not sure if the *A rules would allow a surface sector from MAN to LHR as it may be seen as a way of circumventing the "one stop" rule. If it is allowed then you could buy a cheap one-way from MAN, EDI or GLA and start your *A RTW again from London.
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Old Jun 4, 03, 5:00 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Gaza:
I quite certain that these are considered "City Pairs" (as are JFK, EWR, LGA) and therefore count as London for stopover calcualtions.</font>
Surprisingly not, at least not in the Star RTW rules. I haven't checked the Star RTW Lite rules, but I would be surprised if they treated this differently.
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Old Jun 4, 03, 5:11 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Gaza:
I'm not sure if the *A rules would allow a surface sector from MAN to LHR…</font>
Intermediate surface sectors permitted at passenger's expense, but mileage for surface sectors must be included in the maximum permitted mileage calculation.

FAQ: How do I buy a RWSTAR ticket?
 
Old Jun 4, 03, 5:14 am
  #7  
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Thanks for all the suggestions

I was going to fly into LHR from SIN as my first stop over. Then fly from LHR to AMS and around through Europe before hoping to return from MAD back to London (at this point it was suggested probably via MAN) before leaving onwards to Washington (from MAN again)

Ive read the Star RTW rules and it makes no reference to LHR/LCYbeing treated the as the same city as for NYC/JFK/LGA/EWR but they do seem to be the same city? &lt;shrug&gt;

I will probably attempt to book using LCY and LHR to circumvent the one stop per city rule and see what happens.
So it looks for that part of the trip being:
SIN-(via FRA)-LCY-(via FRA)-AMS-MAD-LHR-WAS

Failing that I think I'll end up bus/train to MAN!

THanks for all the advice!

[This message has been edited by veracocha (edited 06-04-2003).]
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Old Jun 4, 03, 5:40 am
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veracocha, you can book the following flights on your planed RWSTAR ticket out of “Greater London” other than LHR:

• LCY to FRA/LEJ on LH
• LGW to KRK/WAW/ZFY on LO

To AMS-MAD: I did not find a *A operated flight serving AMS-MAD, if this is correct, this might me essential for you, if you calculate your TPM.

[This message has been edited by Patron (edited 06-04-2003).]
 
Old Jun 4, 03, 5:56 am
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The EuroStar train between Paris and London is very nice. Plus you get to see Paris.
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Old Jun 4, 03, 5:57 am
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Thanks Patron!

I'll actually go from AMS to MAD via MUC since as you say there is no direct flight

It should really be:
SIN-(via FRA)-LCY-(via FRA)-AMS-(via MUC)-MAD-LHR-WAS

[This message has been edited by veracocha (edited 06-04-2003).]

[This message has been edited by veracocha (edited 06-04-2003).]
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Old Jun 4, 03, 6:11 am
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You're comparing apples to oranges here, namely airports and cities.
The rule states no more than one stopover in any one city - the rule does not state any one airport, which is what posters are trying to pass off in this thread. All LON area airports are known as London Heathrow, London Gatwick, London City, London Stansted etc so you'd be hard pressed to claim Gatwick as a seperate "city" to Heathrow. The part of the stopover rule that specifically lists cities in a close geographic area, which is confusing some people under the definition, are done so no "getting around the rule" can be achieved in these places. You can of course rightly claim Baltimore is a seperate city to Washington, as is Newark to New York City as is Osaka to Nagoya, but as they are all in the same very close geographic region, they are stipulated as one city. Without the definition, you could stopover in the WAS area twice (BWI & DCA/IAD) or the LAX basin 4 times as an example, hence the clarification on just those seperate cities in a very close geographic area. A single city with multi airports is still by any definition just one city a la Paris, London, Tokyo, Moscow, Chicago etc.
You would also come undone when the linear calc is done. As all trips through London use LON as the generic code, by passing through twice the LON designator will come up twice, flagging the itinerary.
Quite simply London is a single city, but a multi airport one.
Doing the ARUNK between MAN and LON also won't work as both places are counted as one stopover (not one each, but one in total). It doesn't affect your stopover count as both cities are only one stopover, but each city counts seperately for the other rules.
Cheers.
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Old Jun 4, 03, 8:49 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Al B:
You're comparing apples to oranges here, namely airports and cities.
The rule states no more than one stopover in any one city - the rule does not state any one airport, which is what posters are trying to pass off in this thread.
</font>
veracocha asked if anyone had any suggestions to side step that rule:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Excerpt of Star Alliance Round the World Fare
8 Stopovers
G. Maximum of one stopover permitted in any one city.
H. The following points/airports shall be considered one city.
NYC/JFK/LGA/EWR
BWI/WAS/IAD/DCA
FLL/MIA/PBI
LAX/ONT/SNA/BUR
SFO/OAK/SJC
OSA/KIX/ITM/NGO
CPH/MMA
FRA/MHG
ICN/GMP</font>
I know that some TAs see the list provided under H as a complete enumeration of all points/airports that shall be considered as one city. I hope, veracocha is able to find someone who will ticket … FRA-LCY-FRA-AMS-MUC-MAD-LHR-IAD…
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Al B:
You would also come undone when the linear calc is done. As all trips through London use LON as the generic code, by passing through twice the LON designator will come up twice, flagging the itinerary.</font>
As Rudi pointed out several times, there is no one official mileage calculation for RWSTAR tickets across all *A carriers. The mileage calculation will depend on the booking machine that will be used: Eg:
• UA 'applies' airport to airport miles (Different New York airports: EWR, LGA, JFK will show different mileage calculations when booking with UA and eventually you have to pay for a surface sector JFK…EWR)
• LH applies airport-city to airport-city miles (example: LH FRA-EWR and FRA-JFK show the same mileage with LH) use the IATA distances.
 
Old Jun 4, 03, 1:05 pm
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It's actually an interesting question. I can see both sides of the issue here. I guess it all depends on your ticketing agent (some are more flexible(or stupid) than others!). I do think that Al B has it correct-certainly the spirit of the rules is clear enough.

The stopover rule says(my bolding):

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
A)MAXIMUM OF ONE STOPOVER PERMITTED PER CITY.
</font>
While the clause about co-terminals(or whatever they're called) is:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
B)MAXIMUM OF THREE STOPOVERS PERMITTED IN JAPAN.
* NOTE: THE FOLLOWING PORTS/AIRPORTS SHALL BE
CONSIDERED ONE CITY:
NEW YORK : NEW YORK(NEWARK/LAGUARDIA/JOHN F.
KENNEDY);
BALTIMORE : WASHINGTON/DULLES/REAGAN;
FORT LAUDERDALE: MIAMI/WEST PALM BEACH;
LOS ANGELES : LOS ANGELES/ONTARIO C.A/BURBANK/
ORANGE COUNTY;
SAN FRANCISCO: SAN FRANCISCO/OAKLAND/SAN JOSE;
WASHINGTON : BALTIMORE/DULLES/REAGAN;
OSAKA : KANSAI/ITAMI/NAGOYA;
COPENHAGAN : COPENHAGAN/MALMO;
FRANKFURT : FRANKFURT/MANNHEIM;
SEOUL : INCHEON/KIMPO.
</font>
So you would think that since none of the London area airports are listed under (B) then you could fly into LHR and LCY. However I think the CITY rule overrides all. After all, all the London area airports are named LONDON something.. eg: London Heathrow, London City, London Gatwick, etc.

My understanding of the (b) clause is to cover those airports that cover the same general population area/city area but with different names/locations. (eg: Newark isn't even in New York state).

I think you'd really have to stop at somewhere closer by eg: BHX, MAN and make your own way to/from London, or if the TPM is causing problems (and they would on the Lite fare!) then "stop" in AMS, and get a flight on FR or EzyJet AMS-London as a r/t and do it that way.

Also be careful that you don't overrun the FIVE stop maximum on the Lite fare....

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Old Jun 4, 03, 4:01 pm
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Patron:
veracocha asked if anyone had any suggestions to side step that rule:
Excerpt of Star Alliance Round the World Fare
8 Stopovers
G. Maximum of one stopover permitted in any one city.
H. The following points/airports shall be considered one city.[List of airports deleted]
I know that some TAs see the list provided under H as a complete enumeration of all points/airports that shall be considered as one city. I hope, veracocha is able to find someone who will ticket … FRA-LCY-FRA-AMS-MUC-MAD-LHR-IAD…</font>
Patron, I understand your reasoning, but it's not really a side-step - it is one of the most easiest sidesteps for the airlines to pick up. Don't forget we are talking about SQ and LH here - two of the most "anal about the rules" members of the alliance. Either one of them could pick up on it very easily mid trip and refuse further travel until the current routing is fixed and he is then done like the proverbial dinner.
No travel agent should even contemplate LHR and LGW being a seperate city - the cities you listed are exceptions to the other 770 odd cities in the star alliance as they are asking you to count these, not as seperate cities (which they no doubt are), but as one city *under the stopover rule*. That is all that that list is. With SQ being lead carrier in the OP's itinerary, many agents here wouldn't dream of trying to get away with the two London stops as they would more than likely face a ADM from SQ (for one) for sure. SQ has very intensive and serious scanning procedures in place both in it's bookings and accounting, and something glaringly obvious like this wouldn't get far.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Al B:
You would also come undone when the linear calc is done. As all trips through London use LON as the generic code, by passing through twice the LON designator will come up twice, flagging the itinerary.
Patron's reply:
As Rudi pointed out several times, there is no one official mileage calculation for RWSTAR tickets across all *A carriers.</font>
While that is true, we are not talking about mileage here Patron, nor are we talking about New York which you used as your exanmple. We are talking about London and we are talking about city designators in the linear calc. Mileage checks have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Amadeus, Sabre and Galileo will all turn any airport entry for London into the generic LON code in the linear calc. You can enter LHR FRA LCY AMS MAN into the systems, or if you are on a system that will give a direct RTW quote you can show in the segments LHR-FRA, FRA-LCY etc, but they will return the calc to you as LON FRA LON AMS MAN.
(The same as they will do for other multi-city airports where IATA fares look at all airports in that one city under a generic code LON PAR TYO MOW etc.)

The best sidestep advice has been given - EMA or MAN with a seperate ticket by air or other transport to LON and back is the easiest and potentially less painful of the options.
Cheers/Regards.

[This message has been edited by Al B (edited 06-04-2003).]
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Old Jun 5, 03, 11:50 am
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Thanks Al B for your insight.

oh yes, Singapore Girl you're a great way to fly but if you try and screw us you'll wish you flew Korean..... or Aeroflot.... or an IL-76 cargo jet....




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