chuck1

This is kind of annoying and happy at the same time
BWI-DEN #646 on Saturday August 9.

We left the gate in BWI about 20 minutes late for no apparent reason as everyone was boarded.

About 20 minutes out from DEN we were told we had to hold for about 20 minutes due to thunderstorms but as promised at 20 minutes we were cleared in.

On very short final (about 100-200 feet), we did a go around due to "variable winds". I later checked liveatc.net archives and found pilots said 25 knot tailwind on final was the reason. We came around to land from the opposite direction and about 5 miles out tower advised (also from liveatc.net archives) micro burst warning so pilots abandoned approach. At that point we diverted to Colorado Springs.

Original landing time at DEN was 2:15pm and got to COS at 3:34pm. Already there were 4 or 5 Southwest planes plus United, Spirit, American and Skywest planes. Everyone was lined up on taxiways and getting fueled by trucks in their remote positions.

Pilots announced DEN was on a ground stop that kept getting extended. I was listening to COS on liveatc.net on my phone and found out we were one of the flights approaching the critical 3 hour rule and COS had coordinated with ATC to get a few flights (ours included) an exemption and cleared to DEN where the weather was okay but traffic just backed up. By now it was about 5:30pm-5:45pm. The airport authority and ATC did not want us stuck and worked very hard to get us out of COS.

However, there was an aircraft in front of us and one behind us and the WN captain was adamant that she couldn't taxi the aircraft. COS Airport Authority offered to send wing walkers (remember no WN staff) but she said it was still too tight. I'm not sure why (given all the space at COS) they couldn't have asked planes in front of us to start up and move up a few feet but that was never mentioned on the frequency.

Finally one plane ahead of us moved but at that point the news was relayed the crew timed out. It was frustrating because we were fueled and had an exemption from ATC to go due to being critical for the 3 hour rule but the parking position made it impossible for the Captain to want to taxi out even with wing walkers.

Our timed out Captain now tells us that Southwest is looking for another crew. From where, I don't know. I assume DEN.

That is where the funny part starts.

An off duty Captain in uniform riding as a passengers confirms with the company that he is legal and can fly us and he just spoke to his first officer buddy who lives 45 minutes away who is also legal who is now being driven to the airport and they can both fly us to DEN. His friend is is shorts and a t-shirt but his wife is rushing him to the airport. We're told he's a decorated Air Force vet and don't worry. No one complains they aren't taking the time to go home to get his uniform!

He tells us the catch is they are at the mercy of other airlines push back crews and that sort of thing and in 16 years with WN he has diverted countless times but never to an offline city. The crew that timed out gets a faxed passenger list and takes names for those who get off to get a bite to each and again an ID check as we reboard. They join the flight as passengers back to DEN.

We get to the gate around 6:30pm-6:45pm and leave again around 8:30pm.

It took awhile to get a push back crew but we made it with about a 6 hour 45 minute delay far more than any of the other diversions of any carrier that day.

All said, the WN crew did a good job and were friendly but it was interesting and unusual to say the least.

traveller001

Kudos to the Pilots involved. Pilots commute from everywhere. Customers tend to want to get to where they want.

If only there would be a list for short notice for higher pay two hour show anywhere during IROPs.

john398

wow a 5 hr delay at COS where DEN is only 90 minutes away by car, They could of bus passengers faster

ExCrew

If they had the busses, of course. I'm sure there aren't a rack of busses sitting static at COS. Years ago, I was on a flight from IAD to DEN on UA and DEN closed due to microbursts and thunderstorms. We were the first flight to land at the former Cheyenne AFB in Wyoming, and in rapid succession, about 15 to 20 other aircraft followed, including many heavys (wide body aircraft). We were there for about 3 hours before being cleared to go back to DEN.
The base had been closed for years, but still had an active tower. At the far end of the runway you could see local townspeople who crowded near the fence to watch all of the aircraft. Not much excitement since the AFB closed, I suppose. :-)

chuck1

What I'm still curious about is how the planes got parked on remote positions so tightly that our pilot wasn't willing to taxi out even with wing walkers.

Obviously she knows what she is doing but it seems rather odd given that Colorado Springs isn't one airport that I would say is tight on space.

expert7700

During a MDW electrical issue, several pilots were unhappy with the prospect of moving their plane up to let another out. Some were just at the legal fuel and restarting an engine to move up would have caused them to return to a gate to refuel.

KPOM

Kudos to the passenger/pilot and his friend. The 7 hour delay sucks (particularly since a bus ride would have been faster had there been one), but this is one area where a good attitude goes a long way.

chuck1

Does Southwest normally provide compensation in the case of a near 7 hour delay?

Of course the weather wasn't their fault, but crew time out and parking an aircraft in a position where it couldn't be moved could well be within their control.

I mean Colorado Springs is not LGA, SNA or DCA. Even with the other diversions there seemed to be tons of space and other planes, including Southwest flights, got out hours before our flights.

I know COS is not served by WN. Clearly they had an arrangement with a fueler as that didn't take anytime but I would have thought there would have been more contingency plans in place for COS to service diversions considering DEN being such a major station for WN especially on the passenger service front.

expert7700

No compensation for this. Weather delays of any kind at any point in that day's routing mean that compensation is not due to any other passengers on later flights that plane was scheduled to make that day. Even if there wasn't a cloud in the sky in the other cities.

toomanybooks

Seems to me an airline can manufacture "weather" whenever it wants.

rsteinmetz70112

Years ago when Louisiana first licensed riverboat gambling, one of the rules was that the boats actually had to leave the dock for a couple of hours every so often, unless conditions were "hazardous". Some bright Captain then determined it was hazardous to leave the dock when it was dark, as in night time.

Often1

$0 compensation. None of this is within WN's control. The crew clearly had the time to make it to DEN, but the WX delay at COS caused it to time out.

I can't imagine waiting 5 hours to fly a 15-minute segment rather than drive for 2-1/2 hours.

chuck1

Let's be clear.
I was listening to liveatc.net.
COS ATC was offering the pilot a chance to leave COS. The pilot said she felt like there wasn't enough room to move the plane.
COS Airport Authority offered to bring out wing walkers. The pilot refused that too.
By the time the aircraft in front of us moved, the pilots had timed out.
That's when we went to the gate.

If you've got luggage to claim, what's the point in getting off in COS?
Sure..without luggage I would have gotten off in COS but there wasn't much point in having to go back to DEN to get our luggage or file a claim if we beat the plane back. Plus, what about a rental car at that point? Who knows about the availability for one-way rentals. It's not like Southwest has power outlets and we had been on the plane hours at that point. Battery power was at a premium.

What I dispute about the weather delay is how the airplane got parked in a position where it wasn't able to depart when after two hours on the ground it was offered a slot to take off to DEN and the pilot wouldn't/couldn't.

The ability to take off at that point would have saved about 3 hours.

Is that really weather?

Sure, weather got us there in the first place but when does it get to be a convenient excuse to avoid compensation?

UA diverted passengers had food vouchers and I couldn't even get out of security to check with rental car companies because the check point at COS was closed. If a car hadn't worked out, I couldn't have gotten back in.

steved5480

Download/attach the audio to a factual letter with detailed outline as provided above. Tell them specifically what you want (cash, points, vouchers) and specifically why you want it. YOU have LiveATC access and likely enough knowledge to work backwards to figure out who else was stuck in there with you, when they got there, when/how they left, etc.

The worse that can happen is nothing, which is what you'll be assured of receiving if you don't write them requesting more that nothing.

"Just weather" is one thing. "Lazy crew that cannot or will not think outside the box is another". The rules actually prohibit very little when the PIC takes the time do the right thing and follow-up by justifying their actions in a report. Doing nothing is easier. Time out and go to a hotel.

chuck1

All good points.