New COS policy as of November 7, 2012: Free second seats for walk-ups
Nov 10, 2012, 6:01 am
#91
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
I've been reconsidering my thoughts on the new policy.
Speaking with a friend, who is very definitely a COS, but who has never paid for (or been forced to buy) a second seat on Southwest, it's clear that -- despite whatever the intended outcome of the new policy is -- it doesn't really change any behavior for him. And I'm beginning to think it won't for most anyone else either.
He doesn't want to admit that he needs two seats. And, even though I explained that now he can essentially get the comfort of those two seats for no additional cost, the fact that WN will just give him the second seat for free, with no action on his part, means there's no reason for him to be proactive about it at all. He's always flown before, stuffed into one seat, and just dealt with it.
The most important thing is that he stated emphatically that there was no way he was going to front hundreds of dollars to Southwest for several months, when he could just show up and be given the second seat at the airport. If they think he needs it. (He does.)
I suspect many WN customers, know for being price conscious, will do the same.
This begs a functional question: If someone books a seat, perhaps months in advance, can they then call the day before their flight and add the second seat? Or can they then just present themselves at the counter and say they need it, now that it's "free".
If so, how does this help the situation at all?
Speaking with a friend, who is very definitely a COS, but who has never paid for (or been forced to buy) a second seat on Southwest, it's clear that -- despite whatever the intended outcome of the new policy is -- it doesn't really change any behavior for him. And I'm beginning to think it won't for most anyone else either.
He doesn't want to admit that he needs two seats. And, even though I explained that now he can essentially get the comfort of those two seats for no additional cost, the fact that WN will just give him the second seat for free, with no action on his part, means there's no reason for him to be proactive about it at all. He's always flown before, stuffed into one seat, and just dealt with it.
The most important thing is that he stated emphatically that there was no way he was going to front hundreds of dollars to Southwest for several months, when he could just show up and be given the second seat at the airport. If they think he needs it. (He does.)
I suspect many WN customers, know for being price conscious, will do the same.
This begs a functional question: If someone books a seat, perhaps months in advance, can they then call the day before their flight and add the second seat? Or can they then just present themselves at the counter and say they need it, now that it's "free".
If so, how does this help the situation at all?
We have been focusing on the advantages/disadvantages to the COS. The new policy just might be a CS reaction to "How can we most easily prevent a passenger's comfort from being compromised because they had to sit by a COS?"
There is a marketing potential in this. Free Bags! No Change Fee! No Fat Guys Overflowing into Your Space!
OK, maybe not.
But, once enough people learn that there is a smaller likelihood of it happening, it will be a subtle selling point. Furthermore, its success is facilitated by the lack of reserved seating.
Nov 10, 2012, 8:01 am
#92
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Atlanta, GA
Programs: DL DM & 5MM, WN
Posts: 1,451
In a sense, this is the way a restaurant seats patrons. A little extra space for a person of size -- or a family with kids, a table that has a spot next to it for a stroller, etc.
My complaint is that I am a POH -- person of height. Why is my physical shape not recognized in another way than the boarding order system? Why are shorter people allowed to take the few seats with extra legroom?
Again, the restaurant figures it all out. "Can I have that seat so I can stretch out a bit?"
Food for thought (no pun intended).
My complaint is that I am a POH -- person of height. Why is my physical shape not recognized in another way than the boarding order system? Why are shorter people allowed to take the few seats with extra legroom?
Again, the restaurant figures it all out. "Can I have that seat so I can stretch out a bit?"
Food for thought (no pun intended).
Nov 10, 2012, 9:41 am
#93
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Night Vale
Posts: 1,872
I have seen flight attendants (and not just on WN) assist POH's to get a seat with more leg room. And I know of instances where someone will seat swap to help someone out.
The Canadian law is one passenger - one ticket, regardless of the number of seats needed. In part because obesity is considered a disability. Other airlines in the US, like Spirit, have a section with larger and wider seats - for a price. WN cannot offer this option so maybe they saw themselves as an easier target for a discrimination claim.
It will be interesting to see how this all works out. And what happens on a full flight when it is clear that a customer needs a second seat. If there are no non-revs to boot off, will WN remove a paid non-standby passenger to provide the second seat to the COS?
The Canadian law is one passenger - one ticket, regardless of the number of seats needed. In part because obesity is considered a disability. Other airlines in the US, like Spirit, have a section with larger and wider seats - for a price. WN cannot offer this option so maybe they saw themselves as an easier target for a discrimination claim.
It will be interesting to see how this all works out. And what happens on a full flight when it is clear that a customer needs a second seat. If there are no non-revs to boot off, will WN remove a paid non-standby passenger to provide the second seat to the COS?
Nov 10, 2012, 9:57 am
#94
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minneapolis, originally from Cincinnati
Programs: Diamond with Delta, Hyatt and Hilton. 2 MM and Plat with America (thank you citi:))
Posts: 2,345
In a sense, this is the way a restaurant seats patrons. A little extra space for a person of size -- or a family with kids, a table that has a spot next to it for a stroller, etc.
My complaint is that I am a POH -- person of height. Why is my physical shape not recognized in another way than the boarding order system? Why are shorter people allowed to take the few seats with extra legroom?
Again, the restaurant figures it all out. "Can I have that seat so I can stretch out a bit?"
Food for thought (no pun intended).
My complaint is that I am a POH -- person of height. Why is my physical shape not recognized in another way than the boarding order system? Why are shorter people allowed to take the few seats with extra legroom?
Again, the restaurant figures it all out. "Can I have that seat so I can stretch out a bit?"
Food for thought (no pun intended).
On the first reality show about Southwest, there was a teen who was super tall and they allowed him to preboard and take the one exit row seat that has the extra leg room. I remember that show because the GA had to ask the FA how old you had to be to sit in an exit row and I thought it was odd the FA had to check a card or check with someone else because she wasn't sure if you had to be 18 or not. I remember he just met the age requirement. If you are supertall you may be able to try that, but I would depend on it. This dude was like 7 feet tall.
Nov 10, 2012, 11:31 am
#95
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Your friend needs to understand that the COS policy, both the old and new, are not for his comfort, but for the comfort of his seatmates. So, if a COS is reassigned to a pair of seats at the gate, at least two, and possibly three if the COS has a C BP, are more comfortable.
We have been focusing on the advantages/disadvantages to the COS. The new policy just might be a CS reaction to "How can we most easily prevent a passenger's comfort from being compromised because they had to sit by a COS?"
There is a marketing potential in this. Free Bags! No Change Fee! No Fat Guys Overflowing into Your Space!
OK, maybe not.
But, once enough people learn that there is a smaller likelihood of it happening, it will be a subtle selling point. Furthermore, its success is facilitated by the lack of reserved seating.
We have been focusing on the advantages/disadvantages to the COS. The new policy just might be a CS reaction to "How can we most easily prevent a passenger's comfort from being compromised because they had to sit by a COS?"
There is a marketing potential in this. Free Bags! No Change Fee! No Fat Guys Overflowing into Your Space!
OK, maybe not.
But, once enough people learn that there is a smaller likelihood of it happening, it will be a subtle selling point. Furthermore, its success is facilitated by the lack of reserved seating.
Ultimately though, even if traveling alone, he's never going to proactively purchase the 2nd seat. There's no reason for him to do so, when he can just get it for free at the airport.
The new policy is definitely a reaction to the complaints Southwest gets from non-COS passengers. But unless enforcement increases significantly, I don't see those complaints being reduced much. I hope enforcement increases.
Nov 10, 2012, 11:35 am
#96
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
In the past they would generally move the COS to a later flight with available seats if possible, but if not they would definitely bump a paid passenger. I suspect they'll be bumping more paid passengers now.
Nov 10, 2012, 4:41 pm
#97
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
In a sense, this is the way a restaurant seats patrons. A little extra space for a person of size -- or a family with kids, a table that has a spot next to it for a stroller, etc.
My complaint is that I am a POH -- person of height. Why is my physical shape not recognized in another way than the boarding order system? Why are shorter people allowed to take the few seats with extra legroom?
Again, the restaurant figures it all out. "Can I have that seat so I can stretch out a bit?"
Food for thought (no pun intended).
My complaint is that I am a POH -- person of height. Why is my physical shape not recognized in another way than the boarding order system? Why are shorter people allowed to take the few seats with extra legroom?
Again, the restaurant figures it all out. "Can I have that seat so I can stretch out a bit?"
Food for thought (no pun intended).
Nov 10, 2012, 6:04 pm
#98
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 62
I wonder how many more COS will now be claiming a second seat? There are plenty of people on my flights who could qualify as a COS, but are probably deterred by the potential cost. This will probably also cut into the BS revenue since it becomes a lot less valuable because it will likely increase the number of preboarders.
Nov 11, 2012, 10:44 am
#99
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SJC, Northern Cal.
Programs: SWA RR BIS 6.2M, A+'20, CP'20, AA, UA Gold, Hertz PC, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 909
SF Chronicle story covering the broader COS issue, targeting SWA-
http://www.sfgate.com/business/netwo...rs-4026279.php
http://www.sfgate.com/business/netwo...rs-4026279.php
Nov 11, 2012, 4:57 pm
#100
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,512
"Southwest made this change after a technology workaround allowed it to assign seats at the gate that had not been paid for."
Imagine that.
Varied Rules for Overweight Air Travelers
Imagine that.
Varied Rules for Overweight Air Travelers
Last edited by LegalTender; Nov 11, 2012 at 5:44 pm Reason: Add link
Nov 11, 2012, 6:15 pm
#101
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Orlando, FL, US
Programs: DL-Dirt Medallion;US-Cast Iron Preferred; HH-Gold; Avis First
Posts: 3,617
SF Chronicle story covering the broader COS issue, targeting SWA-
http://www.sfgate.com/business/netwo...rs-4026279.php
http://www.sfgate.com/business/netwo...rs-4026279.php
Nov 11, 2012, 7:58 pm
#102
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
Among other things, the article states that seats are getting smaller. I'm curious how they figure that. Boeing narrow body seat width has been constant since the 707 was introduced in the late '50s. The same fuselage cross section with 3x3 seating has carried through the 707, 720, 727, 737, and 757. Airbus narrow bodies are enough wider so that their seats are about 1 inch wider, so on average, seats have been getting wider as Airbus market share has grown.
That said, I think the article may be confusing seat size with pitch. Pitch has been decreasing, even on WN.
Nov 11, 2012, 8:28 pm
#103
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Orlando, FL, US
Programs: DL-Dirt Medallion;US-Cast Iron Preferred; HH-Gold; Avis First
Posts: 3,617
According to seatguru, the CRJs and ERJs have comparable seat width to the Boeing planes. For example, UAs Boeings are listed at 17.0 to 17.2 width, with CRJs at 17.0 and ERJs at 17.3. DL numbers are similar.
Nov 12, 2012, 5:35 am
#104
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
I guess my view of the RJ's is just perception. It is most likely based on the more sharp curvature of the fuselage as I usually get window and the low ceiling height. Thanks for he correction.
Nov 12, 2012, 6:22 am
#105
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: WN peon (was A+), IHG Plat Hilton HHonors Gold DL SkyPesos PM (still a peon) US Chmn, Hawaiian Haole
Posts: 1,166
I looked up the stats and you are quire correct. In fact, the 17" seems to be smallest of just about any plane. I wonder if that may be a regulation. Also, while there are a few listing pitch at less than 31" that also seems to be the standard minimum.
I guess my view of the RJ's is just perception. It is most likely based on the more sharp curvature of the fuselage as I usually get window and the low ceiling height. Thanks for he correction.
I guess my view of the RJ's is just perception. It is most likely based on the more sharp curvature of the fuselage as I usually get window and the low ceiling height. Thanks for he correction.