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Sure. I'm following *your* suggestion and pretending you never applied for DBS Altitude card at all. You would have to put your S$4,875 spending with another card, no?

vsepr: I think the point being made by previous posters is that a point here or there is not that important. When redemptions are in the tens of thousands of points, and you get all sorts of random points from flying, hotel stays, car rentals etc, plus the CC points, you are always going to have "orphan" points. And decent spenders/travellers will always have more points than they can spend (FF point inflation).

If hoarding every single point works for you, then good for you. For others, it's just not worth the time. We should just agree to disagree and move on.

Plus the points are never lost. If you leave any orphaned miles in KF then assuming you redeem again within the next 3 years, those miles will be used then.

Bottom line:

Citi PremierMiles comes out to 1.2 miles per $
DBS Altitude comes out to 1.2 miles per $ on first $1,000 spend per month and 1.6 miles per $ on everything >$1,000

Vsepr, Citi had a higher rate last year but gave up the battle with DBS. From Jan 1st this year they are back down to 1.2 on all spend. This is why I'm not going for Citi PM - they used to be better, couldn't keep pace with DBS, and lowered their ratio. :)

On a site note, when you apply for renewal fee waivers, is it done automatically or do you have to speak to someone? Do you do it a month before the expiry date, or later/earlier?

My main concern with tranferring in blocks of 2000 miles is the need to create that 2000 miles block to transfer when you need miles to use urgently. In my example given, you already have enough points to convert to the number of miles you need, but because of the transfer in 2000 miles rule, you have top up your spending as fast as you can to create that block of miles to transfer. For Citibank's case, you can transfer in any amount greater than 500 miles, hence you need not waste time and money to charge extra to create that block of points/miles.

Anyway, use the card that you prefer. If you think DBS Altitude Card serves you well, go ahead. For me, I usually charge less than S$1000 a month to Citi Premiermiles and the balance $1000 spread out amongst Citi Platinum Visa, Clear Platinum, Citi Rewards Card and Maybank Horizon VISA Platinum, used at specific merchants where there are 5x to 10x points. Hence this way for me, I gain the most miles, even though I charge to different cards. Over a period of 1 year, the miles I earn is definitely more than if I charge everything to Citi Premiermiles or DBS Altitude Card.


When the annual fee is charged, I call in to ask them for fee waiver. Citibank always approve it, whether or not you use the card. No one with a sound mind will pay annual fee these days, unless there are gifts given.;)

Back in 2007, I did use and supported DBS Altitude Card when it was launched. I remembered clearly that in 2007, DBS transferred miles in blocks of 250 DBS points to 500 miles. I'm ok with this 250 DBS points = 500 miles. Most banks have this rate.

In 2008, when the annual transfer fee of $42.80 was due, I switched to Citi Premiermiles because 1. It is VISA, 2. Transfer in any amount greater than 500 miles (more flexible). 3. Transfer fee $25 per transfer (Do not see the need to transfer every time the points reach 250 DBS Points. I only transfer once a year or once every 2 years).

Subsequently in 2009 or 2010 (not sure which year), DBS changed the requirement. Transfer in blocks of 1000 DBS points to 2000 miles. This is when I totally boycott DBS Cards, because I find it too high. Same for UOB cards. Transfer in blocks of 5000 points to 10000 miles.

Sure. I do not fly often and the only way to earn miles is through credit cards. Hence I have to create the most miles this way, such that I do not lose out any opportunity to earn miles and reduce wastage.

In that case I agree you should avoid DBS Altitude, tho not for the statement date crediting you've mentioned.

The DBS S$5 rounding costs you about 180 miles per month, and I've estimated you need to spend more than $1,450 per month (calculations here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/singa...thread-17.html) in order for the 1.6 mile/$ earn rate to be able to out-earn the loss.

If you only spend $1,000 on Premiermiles and $1,000 on Platinum/Clear/Rewards/Maybank, you're right in avoiding DBS Altitude cos the latter $1,000 spending earns at least 5X which beats even DBS Altitude's post-$1,000 rate (1.6 mile/$, which is effectively 4X right?). The remaining S$1,000 earns the same rate whether charged to Premiermiles or DBS Altitude (the under $1,000 rate), and might as well be charged to Premiermiles to avoid the rounding.

Back in 2007 the SCB HK American Express earned the phenomenal rate of HK$3/mile on everything (first spending under $120,000), $100 flat fee per conversion. I was so stupid not to join then - that would have been an easy 40,000 miles to earn.

It then got changed to $7.5/mile on local spending, $2.5/mile on overseas spending (plus certain travel agents including mine) and $300 flat fee per conversion. So I adapt - I don't spend SCB AE locally unless there's a merchant discount as welll, but use it overseas and at my TA.

$3/mile and 500 mile conversions aren't gonna come back. In fact in HK most banks have minimal conversion fees of $100 for 10,000 miles (you can convert 1,000 miles, but you'll be charged $100 anyway). And a lot of promotional spending offers last years aren't coming back either. We are price takers - we just have to live with what the banks offer.

Yup, you are right. Furthermore, some bills and items can only be charged with VISA/MasterCard. If I use DBS Altitude Card (AMEX) as my main card, I will have to carry Citi Premiermiles Card as well to earn the most miles.

If you spend up to $1,000 then Citi PM sounds good. But if you spend more then DBS Altitude is the way to go.

Personally I get WAY, WAY MORE miles on DBS than I would with Citi simply because I am also able to initially charge my serviced apartment to my personal card, thus collecting all the points. So for someone in my position, with many thousands going through the card each month, Citi PM would be a terrible choice when compared to DBS' 1.6 ratio.

Now one thing that Vsepr hasn't looked into was using the DBS Altitude Amex as your main card and backing that up with 2 other Citi cards... but NOT the Citi PM. There's one card that is good for supermarkets and another one that is good for department stores.

I think he says he's got Citi Platinum to cover supermarkets (5X or $1=2 miles) and Citi Rewards (10X or $1=4 miles) to cover dept stores. He can use one redemption fee to redeem from both (plus any points accumulated on Citi Clear too).

Citi Premiermiles earns 3X on everything else and a separate redemption fee is payable per redemption.

Each man to his own - vsper's strategy will work for a (typically young) person who doesn't spend much but is willing to carry quite a few cards when spending in shops; your recommendation to centralise on DBS Altitude will work if you are a busy (typically older) person who wants one card that can do it all (or two - as noted by vsper a Visa will still be necessary).

I get both types over in the HK Asia Miles thread. Unfortunately there isn't a clear-cut recommendation for the latter "one card" category in HK as there is with DBS Altitude in Singapore. We came close last year with a Fubon HK Platinum Visa which earned $6/mile on everything ($3/mile overseas); however like Citi SG, Fubon HK decided to let the promotional offer expire in Feb and the replacement is nowhere as good - instantly triggering a massive round of churning.

WOW! You can tell that I'm young from my strategy? Haha...:D

Anyway...don't forget that for Citibank cards, you can transfer to THAI's Royal Orchid Plus and Delta Skymiles (no expiry date for miles), on top of KrisFlyer & Asia Miles!

Yup, you are absolutely right! That's my strategy because I charge <$1000 a month for the entire household expenses to Citi Premiermiles and about $1000 to the other 3 Citibank cards at the various 5x and 10x merchants.

I know only 2 people other than myself, both Gen Y and CPAs, who've >20 cards. We get a kick out of maxing out earn rates.

The people who ask me for "one" card are all baby-boomers with millions in income and/or spending.

Personally if I'm a bank, I'll do the "one" card business and screw people like you and me. I dunno why banks like Citi even go after our business - maybe they think we'd attach sentimental value by rewarding us early? (As if! Strictly transactional - YBG IBG)

I c...:)

Whoops sorry I meant Gen Y

I think we're all in agreement that you should choose between Citi and DBS depending on your credit card spend:

- If you charge less than $1,000 to your card per month, you should pick Citi PM.

- If you charge more than $1,000 in a month, then you should get the DBS Altitude Amex

Now whether a Visa card is still necessary is still debatable. If I take all my spend, including that which I don't charge to a card, I still get MORE MILES by just using DBS than I would if I ended up charging all my spend to the Citi PM Visa. So ironically, by not having a Visa card at all, I am still getting more miles than if I only had a Visa card. :)

So technically, the only thing that is truly necessary, if you spend more than $1,000 each month... is the DBS Altitude Amex.

Now if you spend a lot in supermarkets then I would still recommend getting the Citi Platinum as an additional card.

But you can't earn more miles on the DBS alone compared to DBS + Citi PM together. Charge everything to DBS where possible and Citi PM for everything else.

Am I missing something here? I thought the earn rate for both Citi PM and DBS Altitude is the same at 1.2 miles / dollar below $1,000? If it is the same, then shouldn't we always go with DBS all the time, unless the merchant does not accept Amex?

No because DBS Altitude rounds down each spending to nearest $5 before awarding 1.2 mile/$ on it.

You'll earn more with the DBS alone than if you only had the Citi, but of course you will earn slightly more if already having DBS you also get yourself the Citi card.

But basically, as long as you spend >$1,000 per month, the DBS Altitude Amex is the "must-have" card, and the Citi PM is just an option you might want to consider.

As Percy mentioned, DBS awards 3 DBS points (= 6 miles) on every $5 spent for the first $1,000 in a month and 4 DBS points (= 8 miles) for every $5 spent above the $1,000 threshold in a given month.

Hence 1.2 miles per $ at first and 1.6 per $ once you cross the $1k threshold.

Points are awarded for every $5 spent, so a $99 purchase earns the same points as a $95 one. Still because of the superior 1.6 mileage-earning ratio, you end up getting more miles, even on such $99 transactions:

*$99 purchase*
1. Citi: $99 X 1.2 = 118 miles
2. DBS: $95 X 1.6 = 152 miles.

*$19.99 purchase*
1. Citi: 19 X 1.2 = 22 miles
2. DBS: 15 X 1.6 = 24 miles

That's why we recommend getting the Citi PM if your spend is below $1,000 each month, because with DBS you only get into 1.6/$ territory once you cross the $1,000 threshold.

[QUOTE=SingaporeDon;16623771]Hi there,

gd day to all...interestin reads.

juz wana to confirm an observation: so if there is no promo for DBS altitude, the conversion for DBS Altitude and DBS black treasures seem to b the same; which means the DBS black treasures can be both yr local and overseas spending card to maximise yr miles?

of course assumption here is spendings are more then 1000 per mth.

All advice appreciated.

Thanks

DBS Altitude earns more than the Black Treasures card on local spend unless something has changed. The black card is better for overseas spend though.

DBS points calculation is complex
 

But tracking DBS points earned on your DBS Altitude card is a real mess, since

1) they credit the 3 points on a transaction by transaction basis - with the $5 spend threshold used for each spend

2) the bonus 1 point once you have crossed the $ 1k spend threshold in a calender month ( note - not statement month, but calender month) gets credited to your account 2 months after the actual spend date

To add to the confusion, the one off 10,000 bonus miles you got from charging a minimum of
S$10,000 to your DBS Altitude Card from 17 September to 31 December 2010 was credited to your account two months after you reached the $10,000 spend in that time period.

So there is no way you can track the bonus points yourself unless you set up a spreadsheet and enter each spend and calculate actual points credited straight away, plus bonus 1 point credit after 2 months

Basically you just have to rely on their word that their systems are calculating the points correctly, which is a bit of a shame. I am sure they could keep the calculations simple and easy to follow from the statement

ok thks n noted. this wil make it pretty troublesome, to change one's card to black treasures when one needs to travel, n use altitude when in town.

thks to all for all the info here.

You are absolutely right!!!
 

You are absolutely right!!! And also what if you need the bonus 1x points urgently to do a redemption? Spend more or wait for the points to come?

Basically Citi Premiermiles VISA (S$1 = 1.2miles) has the following advantages:
1. It is a VISA, more widely accepted than AMEX.
2. Miles awarded for every $1 spent instead of $5.
3. Miles transfer cost S$25 per transfer instead of S$42.80 per annum. (Transfer only when you need and not every time the points reaches 1000 points)
4. More frequent flyer programs than DBS: THAI Royal Orchid Plus & Delta Skymiles on top of KrisFlyer & Asia Miles.
5. Transfer in any amount >500 miles, eg: 12346 miles and not in blocks of 1000 DBS points = 2000 miles, hence more flexible. Eg: You need urgently 5600 miles to do a redemption. You have 2800 DBS points = 5600 miles. By right you have enough miles right? However, because of the "transfer in blocks of 2000 miles" rule, you have to spend another S$335 (when you have nothing to buy) to quickly top up to 3000 DBS points to get 6000 miles and waste the 400 miles in the process, hence creates delay!
6. Other Citibank cards have better miles earning rate than DBS Altitude card at selected merchants, with no minimum spending! (5x = $0.50/mile or $1 = 2 miles, 10x = $0.25/mile or $1 = 4 miles!) Bonus points are awarded once the charge is posted. No need to wait for next month!

Well, all consumers have a choice. Your choice, your miles, your $$, YOU DECIDE!!

Noticed you are a strong advocate of the Citi Premeir miles card, and veri strong and valid pts put acrossed, on terms of per dollar maximum utilisation, lesser spendings and easier conversion. all valid i felt, bt for "bigger" spenders, stil seems givin up some orphan miles makes more sense...n use dbs. but I do agree strongly that we need a visa card with us too.

since we r on topic of citi cards, I know they hav a premuim Ultima card. is tis the same or better then the Premeir miles card ? has anyone done a comparison on tis? apologies, as I am re-adjustin the cards I have, as previously was dumb enuf to use UOB mainly.

All inputs appreciated.

cheers

Oh no...I'm not a strong supporter for Citi Premiermiles card and don't work for them either. I'm just comparing the cards. Which ever card is best at earning miles and easiest to convert to miles at lowest cost, I will support it. For eg, if DBS Altitude cards can change their mileage earning rate to $1 = 1.6miles w/o any minimum spending, free mileage conversion, AMEX is accepted everywhere, transfer in any amount, (Credit cards and banks, are you reading/listening to this?) I will strongly support it...

Oh ya, PLEASE BOYCOTT UOB CARDS!!!...they are the worst cards now. Even for voucher redemption, you need to spend around S$15000 to S$16000 for a $50 voucher (every $5 = 1 point) compared to other bank's card you need around S$9000 to S$10000 spending ($1 = 1 point). Miles worst, transfer in blocks of 5000 UOB Points = 10000miles. My friends who used UOB cards all switched to other cards...even without comparing.

I don't qualify for DBS Black Treasures and Citi Ultima Card, so cannot comment on them...

UOB earn rate is still 1.6 mile/$ at best...no compelling reason to use them.


Doesn't the 2.4/$ mile on overseas spending make the Treasures Black attractive (at least for paying overseas purchases) http://www.dbs.com/treasures/sg/excl...s/default.aspx ? We in HK need an AE to spend in USD and Asian currencies safely (i.e. DCC-free) and have a killer earn rate; our SCB AE (HK$2.5/mile which is roughly 2.52 mile/S$) satisfy that need. Not that impressed with its EUR and GBP exchange rates tho http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...hk-56.html#833

ok, thks for info. seems like treasures black is for overseas spending. Now for the correct Visa card to carry in the wallet.....seems like Citi Premeir is a right choice? stil waiting for anyone to comment on the Citi Ultima....

n UOB may b a gd choice for visa if one qualifies for its infinite reserve visa? that pays 1.6 as well.

For me, 1 amex and 1 visa wil b gd enuf. n as mentioned before, really dumb of my to use UOB and the Krisflyer amex card mainly. regret it big time....bt nvr too late.

thks

Yes, you should stop using UOB cards and KrisFlyer AMEX card asap. Many KrisFlyer members got conned by KrisFlyer AMEX card's advertisement, thinking that it is the best card in town to earn mileage. I feel like telling ppl to stop using it every time I see the card in their wallets and using it as their main card.

Googled for Citi Ultima card. No mention about mileage earning, just that the card is by invitation only and open to people with at least $5 million in assets under management and carries a whopping annual fee of S$3,888.

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ry_590097.html

http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/...re-credit-card

https://www.citi.com.sg/global_docs/.../12Oct2010.pdf

I haven't back-tracked enough.. but just responding to a message above, why is the AMEX Krisflyer card not a good card for earning miles? I was reading through the posts on the DBS card and got really confused with all the conversion talk... and am currently using the AMEX Krisflyer card.. could anyone enlighten me on this? Thanks!

I believe it's good predominantly for buying SQ flights, but if you live in Singapore and use your card every day for normal stuff then you can't get any better than the DBS Altitude Amex.

I see... then it's probably worth checking out the card since I'm not the one making the ticket purchase for work stuff but I have to pay for my own hotel and of course personal expenses with the card. Thanks for your reply! :)

In the end it all depends on personal choices. Both aster and vsper provide lots of info for anyone to decide what cards they want to use for a particular spending mix & pattern. If you are a hardcore optimizer who wants to squeeze the last miles out of your spending than you better follow their advise to the letter ;).

In my case I do use a mix of Citibank Platinum and KF Amex. Is it perfectly optimized? No, definitely not. :) I use the Citibank Plat for all my groceries and department store purchases etc. as the 5 CitiDollar (or is it plat points these days?) for 1 SGD makes for a very nice 2 KF mls per 1 SGD spend ratio. All other things where Citibank Plat doesn't offer the 5x advantage and AMEX is accepted the KF AMEX comes out.

I'm a big fan of AMEX's dispute resolution in particular handy for internet / international purchases and had a share of lousy experiences with DBS in the past so I won't give them one cent of my business.

Personally I'm quite okay with this 'sub-optimized' card duo as it covers the main bases. I also don't want to carry 4-5 SIN CCs just for the sake of a few more miles. To me that is too much hassle, but I do understand if someone goes 'full throttle' and tries to optimize it all the way. YMMV.

Demue's approach is all based on charging under $1k to your card. If you charge <$1,000 per month, you should follow his lead and get a Citi PM card. If, on the other hand, you spend more on your CC, then the DBS Altitude card kicks in with a 1.6 ratio for spend above >$1,000 in a given month whereas Citi stays at 1.2.

Of course if you don't mind applying for and carrying half-a-dozen various credit cards then you can truly maximise everything.

It's actually 2 miles, and a very good card to have for grocery shopping. :) For department store purchases they have a different card you can use which gives even more miles.

These credit cards are really powerful tools to earn miles. Just today, I discovered that I and my partner have broken the 1.2 million miles mark, with actual flight miles making up 10% only.

IMO, the must-haves are these 2:

1. General local spending: DBS Altitude or Citi PM depending on spending pattern 1.2 - 1.6 miles / $

2. General overseas spending: Maybank Horizon Platinum. 2 miles / $

To optimize earnings further,

1. Citibank Rewards: 4 miles / $ for shopping
2. Amex Platinum: 7.8 miles / $ at 10+10 partners
3. Maybank Horizon Platinum: 4 miles / $ for ez link topups so will
include grocery shopping and taxi fares using ez link, and many rewards infinite partners.