Mar 11, 2020, 10:13 am
Last edit by: Ocn Vw 1K
In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, dont call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, dont call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
COVID-19: Lounge thread for thoughts, concerns and questions
Mar 5, 2020 | 1:44 pm
#61
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 558
Yep...travel restrictions per se will become less effective. My only caveat is that I've been saying this for 6 weeks now...and I've been proven wrong. COVID-19, once established, seems to spread quickly, and I include the US as one of those places now since they just didn't do enough testing early on to really get a handle on things (it may have taken root anyway, no point crying over spilt milk). But stringent control measures a la Singapore are appearing to be effective, at least in delaying things considerably. And whilst there is significant global inequity in prevalence, travel restrictions may still play some limited role.
That's not the same as self-imposed cancellation of travel. For one thing, even in most countries with established COVID-19, it's still very patchy: limiting spread between communities allows governments to focus resources, at least for the time being.
tb
That's not the same as self-imposed cancellation of travel. For one thing, even in most countries with established COVID-19, it's still very patchy: limiting spread between communities allows governments to focus resources, at least for the time being.
tb
Mar 5, 2020 | 2:36 pm
#62
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,209
Interesting story from a traveler from China to the USA. He says America isn't as safe, since it isn't as prepared. I see where he's coming from, but I think he's mostly wrong. The reality is that, with humans, you need an imminent threat to get people to act. In China, it became obvious that there was a huge problem and people did what they had to do to stay safe. The same thing will happen in America if the virus hits us hard (which, if you believe the experts, is still unlikely). The good thing for America is that we'll know immediately what we're dealing with; China lost time because it didn't know what was going on and the authorities initially wanted to downplay the problem (as authorities, especially in authoritarian states, are often inclined to do).
https://www.yahoo.com/news/californi...173042979.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/californi...173042979.html
Mar 5, 2020 | 2:47 pm
#63
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area
Programs: BA - Blue
Posts: 4,714
Interesting story from a traveler from China to the USA. He says America isn't as safe, since it isn't as prepared. I see where he's coming from, but I think he's mostly wrong. The reality is that, with humans, you need an imminent threat to get people to act. In China, it became obvious that there was a huge problem and people did what they had to do to stay safe. The same thing will happen in America if the virus hits us hard (which, if you believe the experts, is still unlikely). The good thing for America is that we'll know immediately what we're dealing with; China lost time because it didn't know what was going on and the authorities initially wanted to downplay the problem (as authorities, especially in authoritarian states, are often inclined to do).
https://www.yahoo.com/news/californi...173042979.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/californi...173042979.html
Without a doubt as of today, US is much less safe from COVID-19 to the random man in the street, pretty much any street, than anyone in mainland China outside Hubei.
Now, what will happen to the Chinese resolve once they start importing significant numbers of cases (they've so far identified around 20, from screening 700), I don't know...
tb
Mar 5, 2020 | 2:53 pm
#64
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 2MM
Posts: 7,808
Personal Hygiene - my experiences on a quick 40 minute trip:
- "Wash hands for 20 seconds" is the mantra
- I still hardly ever wash my hands for that long, maybe once a day and only at home (+ showers/baths)
- Still mostly wash hands 3 to 5 seconds tops
- Washing hands is OFTEN not possible, and therefore the idea that simply "Washing hands" won't spread COVID-19 is ridiculous
- Used the drive-through ATM and realized I really ought to use hand-sanitizer after touching the keypad
- Went to fill up petrol (self serve gas station), and realized that after filling up, although I used hand-sanitizer once back in the car, I had touched the gas-tank cap and cover, the outside and the inside car door handle, the lid to the car's glove box, and the outside of the hand-sanitizer bottle before actually using the hand-sanitizer. Those surfaces are now potentially "contaminated" for hours
- Realized that it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to not get some kind of infection that's floating around out there on one's hands while going about one's daily business, and that hands should be treated as infected at all times
- Washing hands is far less important than to NOT touch face/mouth/nose, etc.
- Should really look at investing in companies who deal in non-contact payment methods, and any system that doesn't involve touch (i.e. bio-metric fingerprint: bad, iris/retina scanning: good)....should be big business.....
- "Wash hands for 20 seconds" is the mantra
- I still hardly ever wash my hands for that long, maybe once a day and only at home (+ showers/baths)
- Still mostly wash hands 3 to 5 seconds tops
- Washing hands is OFTEN not possible, and therefore the idea that simply "Washing hands" won't spread COVID-19 is ridiculous
- Used the drive-through ATM and realized I really ought to use hand-sanitizer after touching the keypad
- Went to fill up petrol (self serve gas station), and realized that after filling up, although I used hand-sanitizer once back in the car, I had touched the gas-tank cap and cover, the outside and the inside car door handle, the lid to the car's glove box, and the outside of the hand-sanitizer bottle before actually using the hand-sanitizer. Those surfaces are now potentially "contaminated" for hours
- Realized that it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to not get some kind of infection that's floating around out there on one's hands while going about one's daily business, and that hands should be treated as infected at all times
- Washing hands is far less important than to NOT touch face/mouth/nose, etc.
- Should really look at investing in companies who deal in non-contact payment methods, and any system that doesn't involve touch (i.e. bio-metric fingerprint: bad, iris/retina scanning: good)....should be big business.....
Mar 5, 2020 | 2:58 pm
#65
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast USA
Programs: various
Posts: 6,710
Despite the fear, there doesn't seem to be a lot of coronavirus in the USA right now. By noon EDT, we only have 6 new cases today and a grand total of 8 people hospitalized in serious or critical condition. It seems like common sense that we should do our best to keep it this way.
.
.
Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of common sense happening right now. Starting with: shut down all cruises in/out of the USA for at least the next 2 months. (I'd like to see them shut down everywhere, but the USA only controls its own borders and ports). This is the epitome of "unnecessary travel" and when any single one of those huge ships gets the virus, it puts a huge strain on resources. I hope that California/US can figure out a way that Grand Princess doesn't turn into Diamond Wuhan Princess v 2.0. Continuing with: shut down major sporting events (at least to spectators) and large festivals i.e. Austin's SXSW. Kudos to those companies that have already pulled out. We need to sacrifice the fluff and try to preserve more essentials (government and business services, schools, etc) for as long as possible.
Mar 5, 2020 | 3:01 pm
#66
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area
Programs: BA - Blue
Posts: 4,714
Personal Hygiene - my experiences on a quick 40 minute trip:
- "Wash hands for 20 seconds" is the mantra
- I still hardly ever wash my hands for that long, maybe once a day and only at home (+ showers/baths)
- Still mostly wash hands 3 to 5 seconds tops
- Washing hands is OFTEN not possible, and therefore the idea that simply "Washing hands" won't spread COVID-19 is ridiculous
- Used the drive-through ATM and realized I really ought to use hand-sanitizer after touching the keypad
- Went to fill up petrol (self serve gas station), and realized that after filling up, although I used hand-sanitizer once back in the car, I had touched the gas-tank cap and cover, the outside and the inside car door handle, the lid to the car's glove box, and the outside of the hand-sanitizer bottle before actually using the hand-sanitizer. Those surfaces are now potentially "contaminated" for hours
- Realized that it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to not get some kind of infection that's floating around out there on one's hands while going about one's daily business, and that hands should be treated as infected at all times
- Washing hands is far less important than to NOT touch face/mouth/nose, etc.
- Should really look at investing in companies who deal in non-contact payment methods, and any system that doesn't involve touch (i.e. bio-metric fingerprint: bad, iris/retina scanning: good)....should be big business.....
- "Wash hands for 20 seconds" is the mantra
- I still hardly ever wash my hands for that long, maybe once a day and only at home (+ showers/baths)
- Still mostly wash hands 3 to 5 seconds tops
- Washing hands is OFTEN not possible, and therefore the idea that simply "Washing hands" won't spread COVID-19 is ridiculous
- Used the drive-through ATM and realized I really ought to use hand-sanitizer after touching the keypad
- Went to fill up petrol (self serve gas station), and realized that after filling up, although I used hand-sanitizer once back in the car, I had touched the gas-tank cap and cover, the outside and the inside car door handle, the lid to the car's glove box, and the outside of the hand-sanitizer bottle before actually using the hand-sanitizer. Those surfaces are now potentially "contaminated" for hours
- Realized that it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to not get some kind of infection that's floating around out there on one's hands while going about one's daily business, and that hands should be treated as infected at all times
- Washing hands is far less important than to NOT touch face/mouth/nose, etc.
- Should really look at investing in companies who deal in non-contact payment methods, and any system that doesn't involve touch (i.e. bio-metric fingerprint: bad, iris/retina scanning: good)....should be big business.....
Important to retain sanity...and wash/disinfect before touching face...but it's all relative.
Be healthy!
tb
Mar 5, 2020 | 3:04 pm
#67
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast USA
Programs: various
Posts: 6,710
Personal Hygiene - my experiences on a quick 40 minute trip:
- "Wash hands for 20 seconds" is the mantra
- I still hardly ever wash my hands for that long, maybe once a day and only at home (+ showers/baths)
- Still mostly wash hands 3 to 5 seconds tops
- Washing hands is OFTEN not possible, and therefore the idea that simply "Washing hands" won't spread COVID-19 is ridiculous
- Used the drive-through ATM and realized I really ought to use hand-sanitizer after touching the keypad
- Went to fill up petrol (self serve gas station), and realized that after filling up, although I used hand-sanitizer once back in the car, I had touched the gas-tank cap and cover, the outside and the inside car door handle, the lid to the car's glove box, and the outside of the hand-sanitizer bottle before actually using the hand-sanitizer. Those surfaces are now potentially "contaminated" for hours
- Realized that it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to not get some kind of infection that's floating around out there on one's hands while going about one's daily business, and that hands should be treated as infected at all times
- Washing hands is far less important than to NOT touch face/mouth/nose, etc.
- Should really look at investing in companies who deal in non-contact payment methods, and any system that doesn't involve touch (i.e. bio-metric fingerprint: bad, iris/retina scanning: good)....should be big business.....
- "Wash hands for 20 seconds" is the mantra
- I still hardly ever wash my hands for that long, maybe once a day and only at home (+ showers/baths)
- Still mostly wash hands 3 to 5 seconds tops
- Washing hands is OFTEN not possible, and therefore the idea that simply "Washing hands" won't spread COVID-19 is ridiculous
- Used the drive-through ATM and realized I really ought to use hand-sanitizer after touching the keypad
- Went to fill up petrol (self serve gas station), and realized that after filling up, although I used hand-sanitizer once back in the car, I had touched the gas-tank cap and cover, the outside and the inside car door handle, the lid to the car's glove box, and the outside of the hand-sanitizer bottle before actually using the hand-sanitizer. Those surfaces are now potentially "contaminated" for hours
- Realized that it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to not get some kind of infection that's floating around out there on one's hands while going about one's daily business, and that hands should be treated as infected at all times
- Washing hands is far less important than to NOT touch face/mouth/nose, etc.
- Should really look at investing in companies who deal in non-contact payment methods, and any system that doesn't involve touch (i.e. bio-metric fingerprint: bad, iris/retina scanning: good)....should be big business.....
Mar 5, 2020 | 3:10 pm
#68
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 2MM
Posts: 7,808
And we aren't alone:
Dr Sara Cody, a health official in California licked her finger to turn the page she was reading from, moments after warning the public not to touch their faces due to the COVID-19 outbreak:
Video here:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/111048...h-their-faces/
Mar 5, 2020 | 3:17 pm
#69
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: ua mm, aa plat, starriott LTPP, ihg plat, hh gold.
Posts: 13,056
Same! This is a struggle for me. Can't stop the bad behavior!
And we aren't alone:
Dr Sara Cody, a health official in California licked her finger to turn the page she was reading from, moments after warning the public not to touch their faces due to the COVID-19 outbreak:
Video here:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/111048...h-their-faces/
And we aren't alone:
Dr Sara Cody, a health official in California licked her finger to turn the page she was reading from, moments after warning the public not to touch their faces due to the COVID-19 outbreak:
Video here:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/111048...h-their-faces/
Mar 5, 2020 | 3:56 pm
#70
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 637
Same! This is a struggle for me. Can't stop the bad behavior!
And we aren't alone:
Dr Sara Cody, a health official in California licked her finger to turn the page she was reading from, moments after warning the public not to touch their faces due to the COVID-19 outbreak:
Video here:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/111048...h-their-faces/
And we aren't alone:
Dr Sara Cody, a health official in California licked her finger to turn the page she was reading from, moments after warning the public not to touch their faces due to the COVID-19 outbreak:
Video here:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/111048...h-their-faces/
Mar 5, 2020 | 4:05 pm
#71
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area
Programs: BA - Blue
Posts: 4,714
I'm such a bad offender of touching my face that I've resigned myself to getting infected at some point...if I wasn't with elderly relative now, I would be out licking the hospital beds to make sure I get it before the crunch!
I'm just trying to remember to have 'clean' hands before inevitably touching my face...
tb
I'm just trying to remember to have 'clean' hands before inevitably touching my face...
tb
Mar 5, 2020 | 4:27 pm
#72
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 5,035
Nope.
First, China has a strong infrastructure for political oppression which, in a bizarre twist, is perfectly suitable for tracking the infection. The Chinese government pretty much knows which people you met in the past 14 days and can easily track and isolate them (even without you realizing that).
The West doesn't have such an infrastructure. While it is a good thing in peaceful times, it means the West has no comparable means to quickly determine the contacts of an infected person. This also makes it much more difficult to determine the original source of the infection, since there is no data to analyze.
Second, specifically the U.S. health system does not exactly encourage people to seek out a doctor due to obscene health costs. This means those with mild cases will probably not bother making a test (and paying around $1000 for it) and thus will unknowingly infect those surrounding them.
The advantage the West has is a 2 month lead time for medical research. While these 2 months were pretty much wasted by governments, the West has 2 months less to wait for any new medicines, treatments vaccines etc. that would help against the virus.
First, China has a strong infrastructure for political oppression which, in a bizarre twist, is perfectly suitable for tracking the infection. The Chinese government pretty much knows which people you met in the past 14 days and can easily track and isolate them (even without you realizing that).
The West doesn't have such an infrastructure. While it is a good thing in peaceful times, it means the West has no comparable means to quickly determine the contacts of an infected person. This also makes it much more difficult to determine the original source of the infection, since there is no data to analyze.
Second, specifically the U.S. health system does not exactly encourage people to seek out a doctor due to obscene health costs. This means those with mild cases will probably not bother making a test (and paying around $1000 for it) and thus will unknowingly infect those surrounding them.
The advantage the West has is a 2 month lead time for medical research. While these 2 months were pretty much wasted by governments, the West has 2 months less to wait for any new medicines, treatments vaccines etc. that would help against the virus.
Mar 5, 2020 | 4:53 pm
#73
Moderator, El Al and Marriott Bonvoy, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SIN
Programs: SQ PPS, Mar LTT, Hyatt LTG, AA LTG, LY, HH, IC, BA, DL, UA SLV
Posts: 12,152
Which this ?
The US can presumably not shut down all cruise travel globally, but it should hopefully not be difficult to close all US waters/ports to cruise ships.
Not sure that the federal government can shut down movie theaters or sports stadiums, but state/local health departments regularly shut down restaurants that spread diseases or violate heath codes.
Perhaps some sort of carrot and stick approach? You can shut down now and we will help you with stimulus funds.
Or you can try to continue to operate (perhaps with additional local heath mandates that are very costly to implement such as deep cleaning every theater after every show), but when (not if) you go out of business when customers eventually stay away because they realize it isnt a good idea to go see a movie now (or because Hollywood postpones the launch of every popular movie like James Bond), you will be on your own.
Personally, I see a lot of small businesses that are marginally profitable go out of business when just a small percentage of the population decides that going out for dinner or shopping at a small boutique for non essential products right now is neither wise nor needed.
The US can presumably not shut down all cruise travel globally, but it should hopefully not be difficult to close all US waters/ports to cruise ships.
Not sure that the federal government can shut down movie theaters or sports stadiums, but state/local health departments regularly shut down restaurants that spread diseases or violate heath codes.
Perhaps some sort of carrot and stick approach? You can shut down now and we will help you with stimulus funds.
Or you can try to continue to operate (perhaps with additional local heath mandates that are very costly to implement such as deep cleaning every theater after every show), but when (not if) you go out of business when customers eventually stay away because they realize it isnt a good idea to go see a movie now (or because Hollywood postpones the launch of every popular movie like James Bond), you will be on your own.
Personally, I see a lot of small businesses that are marginally profitable go out of business when just a small percentage of the population decides that going out for dinner or shopping at a small boutique for non essential products right now is neither wise nor needed.
In Singapore commercial landlords are beginning to give rent rebates to their tenants.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...-urge-12505342
SINGAPORE: About 1,000 tenants in urban and suburban malls have been offered rental rebates by CapitaLand, Singapores biggest mall operator, the Restaurant Association of Singapore (RAS) said on Thursday (Mar 5).
The RAS, citing a letter issued to tenants on Wednesday, said CapitaLand has reviewed sales and footfall data for February and will grant a rental rebate of 50 per cent on the fixed components of (tenants) one-month gross rent".
The RAS, citing a letter issued to tenants on Wednesday, said CapitaLand has reviewed sales and footfall data for February and will grant a rental rebate of 50 per cent on the fixed components of (tenants) one-month gross rent".
Mar 5, 2020 | 5:16 pm
#74
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 19,509
Mar 5, 2020 | 5:29 pm
#75
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 19,509
I'm such a bad offender of touching my face that I've resigned myself to getting infected at some point...if I wasn't with elderly relative now, I would be out licking the hospital beds to make sure I get it before the crunch!
I'm just trying to remember to have 'clean' hands before inevitably touching my face...
tb
I'm just trying to remember to have 'clean' hands before inevitably touching my face...
tb