Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > TravelBuzz
Reload this Page >

Cockpit security and policies on entering the cockpit [follow up 4U incident thread]

Community
Wiki Posts
Search
Old Mar 26, 2015, 10:49 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: JDiver
Print Wikipost

Cockpit security and policies on entering the cockpit [follow up 4U incident thread]

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 7:36 am
  #16  
Original Poster
Moderator: American AAdvantage
10 Countries Visited
20 Countries Visited
30 Countries Visited
40 Countries Visited
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT EXP; HH LT Diamond, Matre-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Originally Posted by paulmasterton
If the current system is around identification of the individual trying to enter the cock-pit, could this not be modernized with retina/finger print identification?

Or is it just to prohibitive cost wise?
Currently, the cockpit can set a manual override to block entry for a determinate period of time, usually five minutes in this instance.

Originally Posted by dodo
Video on the procedure of opening the cockpit door
JDiver is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 7:53 am
  #17  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1
A similar case of pilot being locked-out, but without lethal consequences, happened on flight ET 702 on 17/02/2014.

When the pilot exited the cockpit to use the restroom, the co-pilot locked the cockpit door and continued to fly the aircraft.[5] The flight was scheduled to arrive at Leonardo da VinciFiumicino Airport in Rome, Italy, at 04:40 CET (UTC+1), before continuing to Malpensa Airport in Milan, Italy.[4] Instead, the aircraft was flown to Geneva, Switzerland, where the copilot of flight 702 circled several times while communicating with air traffic control at Geneva International Airport while trying to broker political asylum for himself and an assurance that he would not be extradited to Ethiopia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopi...nes_Flight_702
bfp169 is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:08 am
  #18  
All eyes on you!
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HNL
Programs: UA Premier 1K
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by paulmasterton
If the current system is around identification of the individual trying to enter the cock-pit, could this not be modernized with retina/finger print identification?

Or is it just to prohibitive cost wise?
You'd have to allow for every single pilot, as well as flight attendant. Definitely sounds very expensive...
Mikity is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:11 am
  #19  
10 Countries Visited
20 Countries Visited
30 Countries Visited
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Between AMS and BRU
Posts: 8,854
Originally Posted by Mikity
You'd have to allow for every single pilot, as well as flight attendant. Definitely sounds very expensive...
And totally impractical with changing crews on every flight. Stop watching Startrek people (or CSI)....

No remote controlled passenger flights or iPhone fingerprint scanner operated airplanes here....nor a CTR-ALT-DEL to reboot the software. Reality is bit different than at home or on TV.

And surely a FA in the cockpit will be able to reset that autopilot to the correct level.... Or maybe not.

Last edited by RTW1; Mar 26, 2015 at 8:16 am
RTW1 is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:19 am
  #20  
All eyes on you!
10 Years on Site
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: New York
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott LTPP, Hertz Five Star
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by gum
The best way would be that the two pilots have to be within the secure cockpit area during the flight. Some changes to the floor plan with a cockpit crew lavatory would do it.
We have a solution, secondary folding metal security gates (optional equipment that certain airlines install or don't - United paid Boeing not to put it on their 787s) or blocking the aisle with a beverage cart (which US aviation officials say is of equal security). Keep the cabin door open and the secondary barrier in place with one FA maintaining the barrier and (if available) a second crew member in the cockpit.

Originally Posted by gum
Additionally the purser should have some kind of emergency door opening code or device.
They do, but then the issue is that if the purser (or whoever has the emergency code) is under duress they may be forced to give the code for access to the cockpit. Pilot suicide is less common than attempted hijackings.

Originally Posted by BERbound
No I meant if the axe was in the cabin , the captain might have had a chance in getting back in to the cockpit. If it was already in there he had no chance.
Why would they put a sharp object that you could injure/kill people in the passenger cockpit post-9/11? The flight attendant unions/groups would vehemently reject it, you can see that after the TSA was contemplating un-banning ridiculously small knives and they lobbied so much against it the TSA abandoned the idea.
phltraveler is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:24 am
  #21  
10 Countries Visited
20 Countries Visited
30 Countries Visited
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Between AMS and BRU
Posts: 8,854
Originally Posted by gum
Some changes to the floor plan with a cockpit crew lavatory would do it.
Ever looked at the layout of an a320 or similar airplane.... I bet not. One toilet in front, two (or one) in the back, the rest filled with seats. So you would lose at least two rows of seats. Totally impracticle, nor cost efficient. They are eliminating toilets not creating additional ones.

Giving the pilots a bedpan could work... And hope nobody gets hit on the head with it or gets crazy on landing.
RTW1 is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:25 am
  #22  
All eyes on you!
10 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Somewhere In The Five Eyes
Posts: 238
> Additionally the purser should have some kind of emergency door opening code or device.

They do.

On the A320 there is a 'door lock' switch on the center pedestal: Unlock, Lock, Override. In the override position, the external keypad is disabled to protect the pilots from a FA under duress.

Additionally; the cockpit has a good olde mechanical slide-like lock.
gqZJzU4vusf0Z2,$d7 is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:38 am
  #23  
10 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 75
Norwegian Air have announced 2 person on flightdeck requirement with immediate effect

https://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv...anwingsulykken
paulmasterton is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:42 am
  #24  
All eyes on you!
10 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 1,556
Originally Posted by paulmasterton
Norwegian Air have announced 2 person on flightdeck requirement with immediate effect

https://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv...anwingsulykken
It's stunning that this is only being implemented now.
MattEvan is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:45 am
  #25  
Original Poster
Moderator: American AAdvantage
10 Countries Visited
20 Countries Visited
30 Countries Visited
40 Countries Visited
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT EXP; HH LT Diamond, Matre-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Originally Posted by MattEvan
It's stunning that this is only being implemented now.
Or not. There are instances where two in the cockpit apparently didn't prevent similar tragic acts from occurring. There's nothing that can guarantee 100% safety. It's more a Public Relations ploy than anything truly meaningful.

Aircraft fly with one in the cockpit probably thousands of times daily without undue consequences.
JDiver is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:46 am
  #26  
All eyes on you!
10 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 1,556
Originally Posted by JDiver
Or not. There are instances where two in the cockpit didn't prevent similar tragic acts from occurring. There's nothing that can guarantee 100% safety.
Sorry, I just don't see how any argument could made against this standard. Of course, it's not a guarantee that nothing bad will happen.
MattEvan is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 8:49 am
  #27  
All eyes on you!
10 Years on Site
 
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: US Airways Gold, Marriott Platinum, SW A List
Posts: 1,575
Originally Posted by MattEvan
Sorry, I just don't see how any argument could made against this standard. Of course, it's not a guarantee that nothing bad will happen.
It helps with medical emergencies for sure, but in situations like this, I am not sure having another person would have prevented this situation.
heyeaglefn is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 9:01 am
  #28  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 193
Originally Posted by heyeaglefn
It helps with medical emergencies for sure, but in situations like this, I am not sure having another person would have prevented this situation.
It helped in the case of Fed-Ex flight 705. Without 2 people in that cockpit, that plane likely would have crashed
shaner82 is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 9:49 am
  #29  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Community Builder
Community Influencer
All eyes on you!
25 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Programs: Piggly Wiggly "Shop the Pig!" Preferred Shopper
Posts: 60,561
Originally Posted by JDiver
Or not. There are instances where two in the cockpit apparently didn't prevent similar tragic acts from occurring. There's nothing that can guarantee 100% safety. It's more a Public Relations ploy than anything truly meaningful.

Aircraft fly with one in the cockpit probably thousands of times daily without undue consequences.
That was apparently the situation in the Egypt Air crash after takeoff from JFK -- both pilot and first officer were at the controls. The FO was counteracting the pilot's actions and putting the plane on a crash trajectory.

Bottom line is that if one of the pilots is intent on bringing the plane down, it's going to be awfully difficult to prevent that.
dhuey is offline  
Old Mar 26, 2015 | 11:18 am
  #30  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,187
I believe officials have said that the co-pilot was alone in the cabin while the pilot was absent.
SoCal is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.