Yes, already noted in my post edit.

Change of plans = different time of day, pay other carriers $0, pay WN $100+

Change of plans = different days of travel, pay WN $100+, pay other carriers $200+

And the flip side:

No change of plans = cancel WGA and rebook with Ding! fares on a bunch of flights in the next couple months, WN "pays" me $500+, other carriers continue their financial death spiral.

Since I usually pay other carrier less to begin with (getting low fares is more of an art with legacies than on WN, the more you know the more you save on legacies), I save that $500+ upfront and don't have to spend my time watching ding fares, but do spend more time finding that lower fare in the first place.

On top of paying less $ to start with, since I am a very FF flyer, I usually pay for coach and fly F upgraded for free, eat real food on longer flights for free along with unlimitted free drinks on all flights. Then I use my legacy FF miles for trips I actually need that would have cost me thousands of $, thus saving me thousands of real $. WN awards coincide with cheap fares, making the return on $ spent much lower. Again, why should I care if the carrier I am flying is loosing money? I don't bank my FF miles long term; I earn a million FF miles per year and spend about that many too, keeping balances relativley low. I should choose the airline that meets my needs for the least $; "their financial death spiral" is irrelevent, unless they are likely to stop flying soon, which is not the case at the moment.

Sorry, I am getting off topic. My main point on this thread is simple: When it comes to "can I take the next flight without any fees?" WN's policies are more restrictive than most other large US airlines.

That's obvious, and I haven't seen any arguments otherwise. I have explained why the policy makes sense for Southwest in response to people who believe that it would cost the airline nothing to allow free standby.

wanaflyforless, I totally agree with you that you should take the airline that best meets your needs. I disagree with your statement that WN is not generally the best airline for all frequent flyers. It is generally the best airline for me and many other business flyers. 5% of WN's flyers purchase the business select fare. There are a huge number of A-list flyers. The airline does work well for many people. It obviously does not work best for many other people.

No problemo...getting OT is what makes this place fun. In any event, to answer the main point of this thread, the correct answer is, "Yes and No."

The amount of miles in your FF account is irrelevant.

OK - off topic is fun.
I agree; I only mentioned it in relation to the financial health of airlines. An airlines financial health is very relevant to the wisdom of having a large amount of miles in your FF account.

I guess I get confused why people bring a carrier's financial profit/loss into discussions like this thread; since we know it shouldn't affect which airline best meet our needs, why bring it up?

I respect Southwest as a business/investment more than any other airline. Their decision not to charge the public baggage fees increases my respect for WN.

The above proves that many business travellers think WN is best for them or are forced to fly WN; not that WN is actually best for these business travellers. I do not presume to know better; it may be that WN is truly best for all of the above flyers.

I question if the average FF understands what they could get with legacy FF miles but cannot get with WN credits. Also, while my knowledge/experience/persistence allows me to always redeem my legacy FF miles for the lowest published level for an expensive ticket, I recognize this is difficult/impossible for many. I also recognize that the person who flies primarily short routes has an equation that favors WN far more than the flyer who generally goes farther.

In conclusion, WN "is generally the best airline for me and many other business flyers" probably is true for you, lougord99, but I doubt the average business traveller on any airline understands the opportunity cost equation well enough to make the decision that is truly optimum for their needs/wants/priorities.

My personal situation is very unique and the equation should be different for everyone, depending what expensive places you want/need to go that FF could replace $$$$ expenditure for. For me, return on investment is a very important part of the equation. The legacy FF programs allow me to get a $2000 free ticket when I spend $2000. WN does not come close.
AA Example:
10 domestic tickets at an average of ~$200 each round trip
7,500 miles earned on average per ticket (~1400 miles flown each way + status and other bonuses)
= 75,000 AA miles earned, $2000 spent
75,000 AA miles = free roundtrip ticket USA-Cameroon = $2000 value (average fare USA to Cameroon)
As I/my family frequently need a ticket to/from Cameroon, I regularly get $2000 value back from AA after having spent $2000 on AA domestically.

Based on my experience yesterday at MDW, this is not a SPO. The only option I was given was to pay the fare difference to catch an earlier flight.

Disappointing thing about the fare difference, I was doing a transfer at MDW and they said my connection to STL had no value, thus I would have to pay full fare to catch the earlier flight to STL.

You misunderstood. Nevada1K never said you don't have to pay for earlier standby. You do.

Citing the ability to get FF tickets to Cameroon, of all places, hardly strengthens the argument that "many business travelers" would do best to avoid WN.

Wonder how those business travelers who were scheduled to take UA yesterday from/to/through ORD feel about things?

So far as I know, WN has NEVER had a situation like that occur. UA has had one at least twice now in the last few years, not to mention the periodic Jetblue and CO meltdowns. Because of UA screwups over the years much milder than what happened yesterday, my wife will not set foot on a UA plane.

One thing rarely brought up about WN in comparison to the other carriers is that their system by-and-large WORKS. You get very few surprises with them. I know it's a shock to some folks here, but the great majority of people are buying airline tickets because they have to or want to go somewhere and do something.

For people who need to be where they need to be, smooth operations are very important, a whole lot more important than FF benefits.

Sorry to have wandered so far OT.

The times I have missed a WN flight they graciously put my family on the next one, no problem. And once when weather was threatening in STL, they happily moved me to an earlier flight w/o charge.

1) I was giving one example of one rare possibility (that happens to apply to me) among many many different ways people might get $2000 value back from AA after $2000 spent. For many it would be the value of upgrading/redeeming premium cabins internationally. For others it would be the value of the last minute trips to small airports they need. Etc. I really am not trying to tell people to avoid WN.
2) The only carrier I wish flyers would avoid is US Airways. I do not think WN is the best choice as the primary carrier for most business traveler very frequent flyers unless they regularly must change their travel dates or fly mostly short flights or truly have no use for FF miles or need the airports/routes where WN is dominant, etc. Also, when I say frequent flyer in this context, I mean very frequent flyer: those who fly enough that they would be top tier on a legacy FF program like AA or UA (where the real benefits are). For those not familar, AA and UA top tier includes free international upgrades from cheap fares, lots of value for those who wants to go far away in comfort on a budget. The other legacy FF programs are weak compared to AA and UA for the very frequent flyer.

Truly a bad situation. As a very frequent flyer, I have yet to be caught in one of these meltdowns, but yes, it could happen. Worst case scenario would be buying a last minute ticket on another airline (AA) if I really had to be somewhere and it looked like things were not going anywhere fast with UA.

You and I will totally agree that it's great living in Chicago as a frequent flyer because there are so many choices.

Ding! @:-)

WN's reliability and frequency are the reasons why I fly. Discovering FT and learning about getting CP and other tips/tricks is gravy.

And one of my favorite "tricks" is being able to cancel or refare bookings where WN effectively gives me rebates...while other carriers are on the brink of joining the endangered species list.

With my predominantly NorCal-SoCal trips, missing a flight is a minor inconvenience at worst. Soooo many options between ONT/SNA and SJC/OAK/SFO. Having to go to LAX/BUR would make it a little more inconvenient.

I know you're not really bashing WN. However, flying F and going international is an often used canard to minimize the value of Rapid Rewards. There are quite a few of us who see no need to fly F and would rather fly, ahem, CX or HA when crossing an ocean instead of slumming it in UA or AA.

There you go...you enumerated the value of WN. Where we have a disconnect is in your underestimating the number of people who do enjoy those WN aadvantages.


Another common misconception is that nearly all WN passengers are leisure/1x-2x a year flyers, like Allegiant or Spirit.....

I don't consider myself a VFF like you (although on segments, I'd easily be 1P or about 60-70% towards 1K). However, hang around at any of the CA airports on Friday evenings or Monday mornings and you'll see many who fly at least 100 times per year between the A1 and A30 poles.

Certainly! ^ And I am VERY GLAD WN is one of the choices!

Agreed.

1) A premium cabin's worth to you over economy is what you would have paid $$ for it above economy, not a price tag airlines charge that you would never pay. Some FTers make the mistake of valuing a business class ticket they redeemed miles for at $7,000 because that is what the airline charges instead of the real value to them. If they would have paid $2500 for that ticket and no more, then $2500 is what their miles were worth on that redemption.

2) Alliances are a wonderful thing. Legacy flyers can redeem our UA/AA/DL miles for SQ, EK, BA, CX, and NH flights - no need to slum "it in UA or AA". (BTW - HA F is not nearly as nice as the five I mention).

3) "There are quite a few of us who see no need to fly F"
I am one of those people.
However, I think you would have a hard time finding someone who would not choose an F ticket instead a Y ticket if the price difference were $.01
ALL of us would rather fly F than Y as a rule, I am sure there are rare exceptions.
Different people value F over Y by different amounts.
Domestically, I value F over Y by about 25% (sometimes more, sometimes less, depending).
So I would be willing to pay $250 instead of $200 average per ticket if $200 meant AA Y class and $250 meant AA F class.
That means I am getting about $50 of value back from each RT AA upgrades me on domestically.

For the record: There are large categories of business travellers for whom WN is the best airline choice.

I would also say that the majority of these travellers would receive much more value if WN had a FF program like AA/UA.
WN is right for them even though Rapid Rewards is not the best for them.
(I am a FF program expert; less of an airline expert. Sometimes I allow my focus on the FF programs to cloud my view of the bigger picture.)

Why do I think the average very frequent flyer would receive significantly more from AAdvantage or Mileage Plus over Rapid Rewards:

Lets say our hypothetical very frequent flyer does 50 RTs per year and only flys domestically for work.

With Rapid Rewards, the flyer will earn A list and Companion Pass:
- Priority check-in and security and boarding
- First chance at a good coach seat (board first)
- 6-9 Rapid Rewards RTs (depending on promotions)
- Companion Pass: Can take someone with for a year
- Am I missing anything major? Please let me know!

With AAdvantage, the flyer will earn AA Executive Platinum:
- Priority check-in and security, boarding, standby, and irregular ops accommodation
- First chance at a good coach seat (select seat online when purchasing - best seats only selectable by elites)
- 100,000-400,000 AA miles, depending on length of flights and promos
- Domestic: Pays for economy and is upgraded to F 90% of the time
- Gets 8 SWU (international advance confirmable upgrades)
- AA EXP phone reps: talk to a knowledgeable empowered skilled AA rep 24-7, talk directly to human with no hold time (usually)
- 1/2 price annual lounge membership, improving ability to work before/between flights
- (Oneworld benefits like free lounge access, IF this person decides to do any international)

The below valuations are by necessity subjective. I am trying to be as fair as possible; to get the most applicable answer, each person needs to honestly assign their own personal value to each item.

Value of WN benies:
Priority check-in and security and boarding - $200, or $2 per one-way
First chance at a good coach seat (board first) - $200, or $2 per one-way
8 Rapid Rewards RT free tickets - $2400, or $150 per one-way
Companion Pass - $800
Total: $3,600

Value of AA benies:- Priority check-in and security, boarding, standby, and irregular ops accommodation - $300, or $3 per one-way
- First chance at a good coach seat (select seat online when purchasing - best seats only selectable by elites) - $200, or $2 per one-way
- 200,000 AA miles, depending on length of flights and promos - $3,000
(1.5 cents per AA mile means an AAdvantage date restricted coach ticket to Hawaii is worth $525 to you, and an AAdvantage issued Cathay Pacific date restricted business class ticket to Asia is worth $1,650 to you; I personally get more than that from my miles)
- Domestic: Pays for economy and is upgraded to F 90% of the time - $2,250, or $25 per one-way - certainly highly subjective but most everyone values an upgrade more than $.01 so what is it for you?
- Gets 8 SWU (international advance confirmable upgrades) - $2,400
8 x $300, value based on what I see them trade for on CC on average
- AA EXP phone reps: talk to a knowledgeable empowered skilled AA rep 24-7, talk directly to human with no hold time (usually) - I will assume I missed something of similar value from Rapid Rewards
- 1/2 price annual lounge membership, improving ability to work before/between flights - I will assume I missed something of similar value from Rapid Rewards
Total: $8,150

Based on the above math, the same flyer either gets $8,150 from AAdvantage or $3600 from Rapid Rewards.

I would be very curious what personal valuations apply to other posters in this thread - I would love to see your math.