climbermom

It is not my intention to offend or disrespect anyone by this thread. Moderators, if there is anything offensive in my post, please delete it immediately.

On a recent EWR-IAH (5:30 am) flight, the passenger in 1E donned a tallit and tefflin and stood in the bulkhead area while he prayed. I was asleep and woke up when I overheard another passenger speaking (complaining) to the FA about it. When I got home, I did some online research, and most references said the tefflin was used in a synagogue or at home. Is it appropriate to use it in public? Was the complaining passenger (his words) right to be "disturbed by having to watch this in a public place?"

craz

Its not limited to use in a Home or Synagogue. And its OK to put them on anywhere any time, of cause a Bathroom/Lav is not a proper place.

I see no problem with what he was doing, that is as long as he was being distruptive to whomever was in 1F. Im not talking about his praying, but if he was say praying out load that kept waking up 1F. Or if his movements he kept hitting into 1F. Now if 1F didnt mind then the case is Closed.

If another passenger can complain cause they dont want to see someone praying in public, then let them not look. If an FA will ask him to stop praying, well then if 2 men or 2 women or even 1 man & 1 woman are holding hands and that is offensive to me then the FAs will have to step in then also. How about 2 people kissing each other. where will it stop.

Funny the OP woke up Not directly because of the guy praying but it seems due to the person who wanted it stopped, obviously they couldnt care if they by talking was distrubing anyone else.

mikebg

I have prayed with talit and tefillin on many flights over the years. Sometimes the crew have found me a quiet corner and sometimes not. I have also prayed in a Swiss arrivals lounge, a Brussels Airways lounge and (twice) in a transit lounge at CDG. I have never received any negative comments about this. Praying on an aircraft is always a 'last resort', but is often unavoidable, particularly on West->East longhaul routes.

badatz

I too have put on Tefillin and Tallit on many a flight over the years but have always done it in a quiet area of the plane or in an unused galley
I have always taken care not to bother other passengers or create what we call a "chillul Hashem" or embarassment of G-d's name.
On a recent Swiss flight from JFK to ZRH I got up while most of the passengers were sleeping and as the sun was rising and asked the crew if I could use the rear galley for prayer. They agreed with no problem as long as I kept the curtain open (probably a security issue)
I don't think that I would ever do it in the middle of the cabin (except on ELAL of course)
The halacha (Jewish law ) and many prominant Rabbinical authorities clearly state that you could daven quietly in your seat without Tallit and Tefillin at the appropriate time and then put on Tefillin at a later more convenient time during the day
Common sense is always the better way to go

craz

AMS has a so called Meditation room. Couldnt find any better place so my friend I went there (its upstairs some where before going out thru Immagration). Anyway it was a UN of religion there were 2 Muslims praying on the rugs provided, 2 others were meditating & 1 other Jew in T&T , by the time my friend and I finished all the others except the other Jewish guy left. So we were talking among ourselves, till this guy whom said he was in charge walked into the outer room and saw that we talking to each other, and he had a FIT. Babbling how its a Meditation room and no talking allowed etc etc, I said whom are we distrubing No one else is in here but the 3 of Us and we are talking to each other, and since its not a room having any Religious significance to any 1 religion or any religion at all, I see no reason to have to cease my talking. I did say if you intend on studying in here right this second or wish to mediate right now, then I will cease my talking otherwise Have a Nice Day Too.

The only other problem I ever ran into was at CDG in the TWA Ambassadors Lounge where there was 1 woman who didnt like that I was praying in their, usually the so called pray room was locked and it was nicer in the lounge anyway. The 1st time I left after that (I was there monthly) I refused by the 3rd time she still came up to me and I said its empty in that section and if you dont like it either dont look or You know who I am , let TWA write or call me and tell me Im not allowed to pray in here. I did write TWA who said Im allowed to pray there if I so wanted and actually sent her a copy of the same letter.


Other then those 2 episodes Ive never had a problem, if anything the exact opposite, where if someone came over to me it was either cause they knew a place where they thought I would be more comfortable to open up a meeting room (done on their own w/o my asking) and at the same time telling me that I can stay where I was if I so wanted.

mikebg

I once flew from LHR -> SIN on SIA in business class and needed to pray with talit and tefilin on the plane. I asked one of the crew where it would be convenient and would not disturb. He couldn't have been more helpful and found me a quiet corner on the upper deck near the galley. When he noticed I was praying there and it was a little dark he showed me the light switch (which I had not noticed) and put on the light for me. I must add that the kosher business class meals on SIA where quite amazing - the 'pack' even contained a bottle of kosher wine, and they had a whole tray of 'raid the larder' kosher sandwiches for me. Mind you, things may have changed since then - that was in October 1995!

Playsmart

I try to avoid Talit and Tefillin on planes or airports for a few reasons. It is hard to not have the proper "Kavana" or focus on davening (This many be something that only bothers me and not others)
But the main reason now I don't is because my cousin and I were away on business a few months after 9/11. We were doing DFW-LGA and I told him to daven when we get back to NY. He insisted on putting on tefillin before the flight in DFW. Of course people started getting nervous and security got involved, and it was just a pain in the ....

CO FF

Climbermom - I'm guessing that your flight was on/after the recent change to daylight savings time?

Tefillin are worn (with the exception of 1 day of mourning each year) when one says the morning prayers. That can't be done until the time when (if there is a clear sky) there would be enough natural light to see by. With the change to DST, the meant that most observers couldn't pray before they got to the airport for an early flight; with the 530am departure, they couldn't pray until the flight was airborne.

Now, it's pretty funny to see someone stand up, wrap himself (or herself, albeit far less frequently) in a cloth draped like a cape, and then start tying boxes to his/her arm & head with leather straps. But, re the complainer: you don't have the right to tell the praying pax whether or not to wear his leather & straps. If the seatbelt sign is off, the praying pax had the right to stand up at his seat; the fact that he may have been mumbling quietly occasionally, bowing, bending, twisting, turning or swaying is his own business, right? Like Craz said, if the complainer didn't like it, he should have closed his eyes and pretended he was in his fictionalized little private universe filled with people just like him...

craz

more than 1 day ayear that we dont put it on, Im assuming you were thinking about Yom Kippur- however on Tish B'Av also a fast day we dont put them on in the morning but rather we do for Mincha (afternoon prays). More so there are 52 Shabboses a year along with Yom Tovim that can fall out during the weekday that we also dont put them on.

2) We can actually put Talis and Teffilin on before day break and those who pray the Natz actually put them on while its still dark outside.As by its a so called clear sky one wants to be starting the Shmonah Esrei at that time which is appx 20 mins into the morning prays. So Id say appx 30+ before day break one can put them on.

badatz

[QUOTE=craz;7434219]sorry to correct you But 1) its more then 1 day ayear that we dont put it on, Im assuming you were thinking about Yom Kippur- however on Tish B'Av also a fast day we dont put them on in the morning but rather we do for Mincha (afternoon prays). More so there are 52 Shabboses a year along with Yom Tovim that can fall out during the weekday that we also dont put them on.

I'm sure he was talking about Tisha B'av. No one who worries about Tefillin
would be flying on Shabbat, Yom Tov (holidays) or Yom Kippur

climbermom

No, actually it was late February, weeks before the recent change.

GUWonder

The complaining passenger should mind his own business instead of meddling in the casual affairs (including religious practices) of others .

As noted in the OP, it was the complaining passenger who was disruptive (i.e., woke up the OP), not the person praying who disrupted the OP's sleep.

I see people doing as noted in the OP, both at airports and on planes, and it doesn't seem to be a problem unless someone wants to make it into one by meddling in the affairs of another individual. That is, there's nothing inherently inappropriate in the use of tefflin while traveling.

craz

[QUOTE=badatz;7434561] I was heading back over to add that info, that there is more then 1 day a yr when Teffilin arent worn, but that a person who usually wears Teffilin wont be flying on those days anyway.

Yet theres a Guy who just finished saying Kaddish for His Mother who lives in NJ yet drove into my part of NY to attend services. He also drove over Fri afternoon (which is OK) and drove back to NJ after services Fri night and drove back on Sat again. My Point is although I doubt he put Teffilin on,on Shabbos. He does drive and fly on Shabbos as do many Conservative Jews who may also put on Teffilin each and everyday that One is supoose to.

VideoPaul

I thought I had a pretty good handle on Jewish prayer, but reading this thread I found out how much I never knew I never knew. Lots to ask about the next time at my buddy's house about these terms, which I had never heard before (tefflin / talis / daven)

I don't think there can ever be negative consequences to people knowing more about a religion other than their own, because ignorance is the cause of so many of the world's problems. Thank you very much for posting this question, I am really enjoying learning something new!

--PP

CO FF

[QUOTE=craz;7435616]Craz -- I was referring to Tisha b'Av; Yom Kippur is not a day of mourning. Badatz - yes, I was deliberately leaving off shabbat, chagim (festivals) and the high holy days. I think that Tisha b'Av is the only day on which tefillin are not worn for morning services that an observant jew would fly - right?

Also, one correction re Conservative Jews and driving on shabbat. The scope of the ruling was very limited: it said that if there is no conservative synagogue within walking distance of your residence, then you can drive solely for the purpose of travelling directly between your house and the nearest Conservative synagogue for the purpose of attending prayer services. Not "to synagogue and then to the mall", not even "to synagogue and then to your uncle's house 3 towns away for lunch" or "to synagogue and then to the off-site bar mitzvah reception". If you go by the strict ruling, you can POSSIBLY argue that there's a reason to drive from NJ to NY on shabbat, but only if the closest conservative synagogue to your NJ residence is across the river in NY (although the bridge/tunnel toll is probably a non-starter - not sure how EZPass plays in, but the original ruling said "no buying gas", because buying is prohibited, so my guess is that paying the toll electronically by something in your car would also be a no-no). There's absolutely no justification for a flight on shabbat.