Denied boarding because of delayed baggage
Aug 19, 2019, 9:22 pm
#16
Join Date: Jun 2008
Programs: TK*G (E+), IHG Plat Ambassador
Posts: 7,884
I would absolutely apply for the EU compensation. They will probably deny it, so you would have to escalate to ULC (Urzad Lotnictwa Cywilnego - Polish Civil Aviation Authorities). The bottom line is that you was at the gate within the timeline, but your seat was probably gone - possibly given to stand-by or non-rev passengers. If you have not made it to the gate, they would be able to deny quoting the ATC issues - but you was there ready to board.
Aug 20, 2019, 6:09 am
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7
You're right and it's the delay arriving at CPT that matters. On reading the OP my first instinct was that delay compensation was due, however you do mention " the congestion at the airport and lack of permission to take off." That indicates it may have been ATC that caused the delay which means potentially outwith QRs control and no compensation under EU261. No harm in trying though.
I would absolutely apply for the EU compensation. They will probably deny it, so you would have to escalate to ULC (Urzad Lotnictwa Cywilnego - Polish Civil Aviation Authorities). The bottom line is that you was at the gate within the timeline, but your seat was probably gone - possibly given to stand-by or non-rev passengers. If you have not made it to the gate, they would be able to deny quoting the ATC issues - but you was there ready to board.
Aug 20, 2019, 7:07 am
#18
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: PVG
Programs: SK*G, QR*G
Posts: 514
The minimum connection time at Doha is 45minutes; it was breached because of the late inbound flight. Most airlines will automatically offload you in these circumstances; it’s managed by a computer algorithm. You are probably entitled to compensation but I am no expert.
Most airlines will not offload passengers if the incoming flight is slightly late, and certainly not if the passengers might arrive at the gate on time.
Aug 20, 2019, 10:03 am
#19
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 795
But if the second flight was overbooked or waitlisted, it makes no odds if you "might" arrive at the gate on time, your seat may have already been allocated to someone else by the time you land because you would miss the MCT, especially if you have transferring baggage.
If you're hand baggage only and there are plenty of available seats on the second flight you may well be lucky. Likewise if there are lots of passengers connecting to flight 2 from flight 1 and it makes sense to hold it. Unusual on a narrow body inbound to a wide body outbound though, in my experience, although I have benefited when it's been wide body to wide body
If you're hand baggage only and there are plenty of available seats on the second flight you may well be lucky. Likewise if there are lots of passengers connecting to flight 2 from flight 1 and it makes sense to hold it. Unusual on a narrow body inbound to a wide body outbound though, in my experience, although I have benefited when it's been wide body to wide body
Aug 20, 2019, 12:41 pm
#20
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LON
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 3,918
I just checked it up and unfortunately the aviation law has changed earlier this year and ULC no longer deals with complaints against airlines.. So now the only way to escalate is to go to court.. And I assume a potential lawsuit would need to be filed in Qatar since this is where their headquarters are?
Aug 20, 2019, 8:19 pm
#21
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,307
Yes, emphasise the claim is for denied boarding rather than delay and that you were told at the gate while in the boarding queue.
Aug 23, 2019, 3:28 am
#22
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LHR
Programs: QR Platinum, WY Gold, Shangri-la Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,151
So let's say we have 2 possibilities of what happened:
1. There is a QR rule that disallows a passenger to fly without baggage. Other major international carriers don't have this rule (at least the ones that I regularly fly with), which means QR is vastly inferior in the quality of service it delivers.
2. There is no rule that disallows a passenger to fly without baggage. In this case I was flat out lied to by the whole team of QR gate agents.
1. There is a QR rule that disallows a passenger to fly without baggage. Other major international carriers don't have this rule (at least the ones that I regularly fly with), which means QR is vastly inferior in the quality of service it delivers.
2. There is no rule that disallows a passenger to fly without baggage. In this case I was flat out lied to by the whole team of QR gate agents.
There is no rule about flying without luggage IF the circumstances of doing so were outside of your control. I've had a late arriving first flight where I was offered the option by QR agents airside to either connect on my booked flight without my checked luggage (which would follow later, as there was not enough time to transfer it to my booked connection) or be rebooked to a later connection with my luggage. I chose the first option and my luggage then arrived the next day.
I've also had the exact same situation as you - a delayed first leg meant I was offloaded from my following flight and rebooked to a later flight. I made it to the gate on time for my original flight but was denied boarding as I'd already been offloaded. Upon checking expertflyer the flight still went out full (despite 5-6 of us all denied boarding) and so I assume it had been oversold. I didn't mind too much as I was offered my choice of later flights and ended up having a really nice stopover courtesy of QR!
Last edited by purple1addict; Aug 23, 2019 at 3:44 am
Aug 23, 2019, 4:01 am
#23
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7
It would have been number 2 - more of a white lie to be fair though. Your first flight arrived late so you were offloaded (possibly automatically). Your seat was then possibly filled by someone else. You manage to arrive at the gate before it closes but unfortunately you no longer have a seat on that flight. Rather than enter into a long discussion/explanation with you about why exactly you were offloaded, the gate agent's priority is to get the flight away on time and redirect you to someone who can actually help you. So a small white lie is the simplest way of doing this.
I didn't know that you can actually check how full a particular flight was on expertflyer, interesting feature. As I don't have a PRO subscription, would you (or anyone else) mind checking if QR1369 was completely full on August 4th? Thanks a lot in advance!
Aug 23, 2019, 1:06 pm
#24
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LON
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 3,918
Most airlines inform passengers of their rights in the process of booking the ticket, and quite often it is available at check in desks when flying from the EU. I wouldn't get hung up on not being informed of your rights, and at Doha 99% of the staff are going to be completely clueless about EU261.
Aug 24, 2019, 6:26 am
#25
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LHR
Programs: QR Platinum, WY Gold, Shangri-la Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,151
Aug 24, 2019, 4:03 pm
#26
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Londinium
Programs: BA Gold. Kangorucci. NZGE.KLM Gold. VS gold
Posts: 1,617
I can assure you that BA will offload.
Sep 2, 2019, 8:47 am
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7
So, I have an update on the issue. I got a reply from them, these are the most important parts:
Although every effort is made to achieve on time departures, there are occasions when flights are delayed / cancelled due to circumstances beyond our control as it unfortunately happened with QR260 from Warsaw to Doha which was due to air traffic slot restrictions.
Please allow us to explain that the minimum connecting time required at Doha is 45 minutes which is sufficient for passengers and baggage transfer. Due to the extent of your inbound flight delay, you have not been able to travel on your flight QR1369 hence you have been rebooked to travel on the next flight.
I wrote back that I respectfully disagree with that interpretation and that my case cannot be treated as a missed connection, since I didn’t technically miss the flight to Cape Town – I managed to come to the gate on time (in fact, around 10 minutes before the gate closed) with a valid ticket for the flight, fulfilling my contractual obligations, and I was denied my right to board the plane. I even pasted an excerpt from the definitions in the Conditions of Carriage:
Denied boarding - means a refusal to accommodate passengers on a flight although they have a valid ticket, a confirmed reservation on that flight and presented themselves for check-in within the required time limit and as stipulated
I pointed out that there has already been a court decision clarifying that such a scenario is in fact a denied boarding and not a missed connection (the Iberia case). I went on to say that while minimum connecting time might be their internal rule (which, by the way, refers to which tickets can actually be sold, not to the passenger’s ability to use their valid ticket), it is of no legal consequence, since it doesn’t appear in the Conditions of Carriage and was therefore not part of the contract that I entered into upon purchasing the flight ticket. I then asked them to reevaluate the case again and to state a valid legal (not operational) reason for not letting me on board even though I appeared at the gate on time.
After 2 days I got a reply saying:
Again, kindly be informed that you were unable to travel on this flight which was purely due to delay arrival of your inbound flight. As explained earlier, the delay departure from Warsaw was due to an air traffic slot restrictions which is an extra ordinary circumstance for which no compensation is payable.
It was pretty disappointing since they didn't address any of the points I was making. I am now seriously considering filing a lawsuit against Qatar.
Although every effort is made to achieve on time departures, there are occasions when flights are delayed / cancelled due to circumstances beyond our control as it unfortunately happened with QR260 from Warsaw to Doha which was due to air traffic slot restrictions.
Please allow us to explain that the minimum connecting time required at Doha is 45 minutes which is sufficient for passengers and baggage transfer. Due to the extent of your inbound flight delay, you have not been able to travel on your flight QR1369 hence you have been rebooked to travel on the next flight.
I wrote back that I respectfully disagree with that interpretation and that my case cannot be treated as a missed connection, since I didn’t technically miss the flight to Cape Town – I managed to come to the gate on time (in fact, around 10 minutes before the gate closed) with a valid ticket for the flight, fulfilling my contractual obligations, and I was denied my right to board the plane. I even pasted an excerpt from the definitions in the Conditions of Carriage:
Denied boarding - means a refusal to accommodate passengers on a flight although they have a valid ticket, a confirmed reservation on that flight and presented themselves for check-in within the required time limit and as stipulated
I pointed out that there has already been a court decision clarifying that such a scenario is in fact a denied boarding and not a missed connection (the Iberia case). I went on to say that while minimum connecting time might be their internal rule (which, by the way, refers to which tickets can actually be sold, not to the passenger’s ability to use their valid ticket), it is of no legal consequence, since it doesn’t appear in the Conditions of Carriage and was therefore not part of the contract that I entered into upon purchasing the flight ticket. I then asked them to reevaluate the case again and to state a valid legal (not operational) reason for not letting me on board even though I appeared at the gate on time.
After 2 days I got a reply saying:
Again, kindly be informed that you were unable to travel on this flight which was purely due to delay arrival of your inbound flight. As explained earlier, the delay departure from Warsaw was due to an air traffic slot restrictions which is an extra ordinary circumstance for which no compensation is payable.
It was pretty disappointing since they didn't address any of the points I was making. I am now seriously considering filing a lawsuit against Qatar.
Sep 2, 2019, 10:58 pm
#28
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: QR Platinum, Star Alliance Gold (LH Sen)
Posts: 764
So, I have an update on the issue. I got a reply from them, these are the most important parts:
Although every effort is made to achieve on time departures, there are occasions when flights are delayed / cancelled due to circumstances beyond our control as it unfortunately happened with QR260 from Warsaw to Doha which was due to air traffic slot restrictions.
Please allow us to explain that the minimum connecting time required at Doha is 45 minutes which is sufficient for passengers and baggage transfer. Due to the extent of your inbound flight delay, you have not been able to travel on your flight QR1369 hence you have been rebooked to travel on the next flight.
I wrote back that I respectfully disagree with that interpretation and that my case cannot be treated as a missed connection, since I didn’t technically miss the flight to Cape Town – I managed to come to the gate on time (in fact, around 10 minutes before the gate closed) with a valid ticket for the flight, fulfilling my contractual obligations, and I was denied my right to board the plane. I even pasted an excerpt from the definitions in the Conditions of Carriage:
Denied boarding - means a refusal to accommodate passengers on a flight although they have a valid ticket, a confirmed reservation on that flight and presented themselves for check-in within the required time limit and as stipulated
I pointed out that there has already been a court decision clarifying that such a scenario is in fact a denied boarding and not a missed connection (the Iberia case). I went on to say that while minimum connecting time might be their internal rule (which, by the way, refers to which tickets can actually be sold, not to the passenger’s ability to use their valid ticket), it is of no legal consequence, since it doesn’t appear in the Conditions of Carriage and was therefore not part of the contract that I entered into upon purchasing the flight ticket. I then asked them to reevaluate the case again and to state a valid legal (not operational) reason for not letting me on board even though I appeared at the gate on time.
After 2 days I got a reply saying:
Again, kindly be informed that you were unable to travel on this flight which was purely due to delay arrival of your inbound flight. As explained earlier, the delay departure from Warsaw was due to an air traffic slot restrictions which is an extra ordinary circumstance for which no compensation is payable.
It was pretty disappointing since they didn't address any of the points I was making. I am now seriously considering filing a lawsuit against Qatar.
Although every effort is made to achieve on time departures, there are occasions when flights are delayed / cancelled due to circumstances beyond our control as it unfortunately happened with QR260 from Warsaw to Doha which was due to air traffic slot restrictions.
Please allow us to explain that the minimum connecting time required at Doha is 45 minutes which is sufficient for passengers and baggage transfer. Due to the extent of your inbound flight delay, you have not been able to travel on your flight QR1369 hence you have been rebooked to travel on the next flight.
I wrote back that I respectfully disagree with that interpretation and that my case cannot be treated as a missed connection, since I didn’t technically miss the flight to Cape Town – I managed to come to the gate on time (in fact, around 10 minutes before the gate closed) with a valid ticket for the flight, fulfilling my contractual obligations, and I was denied my right to board the plane. I even pasted an excerpt from the definitions in the Conditions of Carriage:
Denied boarding - means a refusal to accommodate passengers on a flight although they have a valid ticket, a confirmed reservation on that flight and presented themselves for check-in within the required time limit and as stipulated
I pointed out that there has already been a court decision clarifying that such a scenario is in fact a denied boarding and not a missed connection (the Iberia case). I went on to say that while minimum connecting time might be their internal rule (which, by the way, refers to which tickets can actually be sold, not to the passenger’s ability to use their valid ticket), it is of no legal consequence, since it doesn’t appear in the Conditions of Carriage and was therefore not part of the contract that I entered into upon purchasing the flight ticket. I then asked them to reevaluate the case again and to state a valid legal (not operational) reason for not letting me on board even though I appeared at the gate on time.
After 2 days I got a reply saying:
Again, kindly be informed that you were unable to travel on this flight which was purely due to delay arrival of your inbound flight. As explained earlier, the delay departure from Warsaw was due to an air traffic slot restrictions which is an extra ordinary circumstance for which no compensation is payable.
It was pretty disappointing since they didn't address any of the points I was making. I am now seriously considering filing a lawsuit against Qatar.
You got some very useful links here, but I possibly would not file the lawsuite myself, rather give it to one of the service providers for such things, even they will take their share of the outcome ;-)