Dave Noble

There seem to be 2 issues with this; firstly, QF do not have discretion to refuse for any reason since this would imply they could refuse admission to someone for being black for example. Secondly, it only says that they have right to refuse admission, not that they have the right to eject someone who has already legitimately entered

Dave

QF WP

Okay, now back in BNE (after a flight this afternoon and a QP drink with dsn). Reading with interest the posts to date.

Now there are "arguments" from both sides as to what happened...

The manager was obviously protecting the QP - "revenue protection" is probably a good term I heard used. In fact, as some realised (including me); he was also on duty last year when ozfest I's QP visit happened.

Yes, we were doing it within the rules, albeit we were a group. There were around 9 Platinums (who according to the rules, are allowed to bring in 2 non-travelling guests). A number of FT'ers (at least 5 that I know) who bought fully refundable tickets as well a number who were travelling home and able to bring in 1 guest. We calculated that we were within the numbers limit.

With hindsight (which has 20/20 vision), perhaps both sides could have done it better. Enough said.

Russell Corr

One way of looking at this is to imagine you were legitimately in the QP seeing off a close family member or vice versa that you had not seen for years.

Imagine how you would feel if due to some problem a security guy comes round and checks whether you or your family member has a BP. You do not have one because you are only seeing them off but they are entiled to lounge access with a guest.

To be asked to leave the lounge in this scenario would be very upsetting and I know that I personally would be VERY peeved with Qantas.

That would have happened to people in the QP yesterday.

AndersB

I think it is unfair to criticise the organisers of OzFest for not contacting Qantas about it. It is clear that Qantas knew about it in advance anyway. This is how Qantas chose to deal with it. I don't think by contacting them about it in advance "officially" would have been met with any other attitude.

I have several times in the past used the Qantas Club while not flying, or just after arriving. It is very handy to wait in the lounge if you are early for a meeting.

But as d00t has experienced in Brisbane recently http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=431072 Qantas is no longer consistently allowing WPs into their lounges when not flying. I am amazed that they have introduced this new "policy" without providing advance official notice to all their Platinum flyers.

The fact that the benefit is still on their website, but with no link to it from their menu system is no coincidence. They know what they are doing.

But the way they are handling the program changes is very poor. And their attitude towards their frequent flyers seems like commercial kamikaze.

The QFF program is supposedly a loyalty program. Qantas needs to understand that loyalty is earned both ways.

infoworks

We had his name at the time, but I forget it now. I am sure others remember.

I am also sure he feels that he was polite, did the right thing, etc. but he also appeared to enjoy "flexing his muscles".

The suggestion to liaise with Qantas beforehand is good, but sometimes asking permission, it will never come, but seeking forgiveness...

I do hope Qantas will take this opportunity, regardless of rules, to identify a spokesperson for the forum, as some other hospitatily industry "partners" do, participate positively and help us and themselves...both "sides" can all only benefit as a result.

d00t

I can tell you right now off the bat that if the privledge of platinum does not entitle me to enter the lounge whenever i like, including those non-flying days with guests that I would not see any benefit of being platinum.

this is the last remaining thing that I'm sure keep many of us WP's flying with QF.

The *only* difference between gold and plat, is:

- first class lounge access? (not worth the extra $$)
- upgrades ? pfft like anyone gets it anyway
- priority line? no big deal, other airlines answer calls faster.
- first class check in with F tags? not honored by QF anyway, F checkin is no different to biz checkin 99% of the time.

So, I am one qantas platinum that has drawn a line in the sand (to steal their own wording). Take 'anytime' WP access and they will lose all my business after retaining GOLD because the benefits between gold and plat are almost non-existant when TWICE the amount of travel is required to obtain plat.

d00t

I'll do a straight trade with you QF.. chairmans lounge membership for PR board skillz

ozstamps

May I make a few observations as an invited guest of a Platinum member to the QF lounge Saturday:

1. I saw a number of well dressed people sitting chatting at tables spread widely apart, quietly sipping drinks in an otherwise almost totally deserted Qantas club - with ages ranging into the 60s. No-one was aged under 25 in my opinion. (Contrast this to the dozen young and very loud football yobs swilling beers I walked past on my way in.)

2. All these people were I believe invited in by Platinum members. And/or by a dozen of so Qantas Gold members or Qantas Club members as their guests - all of whom had valid same day tickets. As far as I know EVERY person in the Club was invited inside completely legitimately by Qantas Elites. Two guests by Platinums, and one by the others. None of these guests needed to be flying. There was nothing being done here whatever that contradicts Qantas printed Club entry rules AFAIK.

3. Our quiet table of 4 was approached by an officious little twit who I recall said he was Qantas Domestic Airport manager, and who had at each side of him unformed security guards to back up his own apparent lack of self-confidence, and who basically said: "finish your drink and leave - I do not care how you got in, but you are not staying".

When he was asked was it not true a Platinum member may invite a guest he replied to the effect of: "I make the rules here and that is my rule for today. I am not discussing the matter with you, no matter what colour Qantas flyer card you hold." And marched off to likewise threaten the next table.

4. A little later a PA announcement said anyone who was in the Club and not flying that day had to leave immediately, or they would be removed by security guards.

---------------

Qantas, let me make this observation. There were many folks in that lounge who were top level Elites from a number of major airlines. They had flown in from five continents. Many of whom I am sure had never been in a Qantas Club. I am a Platinum member of 3 major airline schemes and the behaviour of this little upstart Manager was indeed a major embarrassment to Qantas. And to all your Qantas Elites in that room.

This visit was a perfect showcase of your great Club to a lot of international guests, who spend a ton of money on air travel. Allowing them a drink or two as guests of your heaviest flyers would have been a superb PR move. And created not only goodwill, but quite possibly revenue business. And cost peanuts in the scheme of things. Especially as you have seriously p!ssed off your Elites with your outrageous upward award increases this same month.

Heck if Qantas had any PR brains this twit of a manger would instead have been greeting the group and shaking hands and handing out Qantas pins or badges something as welcome memento. He knew we were coming, and the way he acted was absurd.

Guess what Qantas - doing this kind of invited guest thing is not new - in fact Continental Airlines only last month offered an invite to anyone on FT who wanted to visit Houston to come along and be wined and dined by Continental at their expense. Hey, they even offered special discount air tickets for you to do just that. The CO CEO and their 5 top executives came along. Randy came along. ~250 Flytertalkers came along. No one was tossed out by security guards or harassed - they were all invited along and CO picked up the entire tab, which ran into the $10,000s.

Yep, CO picked up the tab for 250 folks for DINNER. Not just a few measly drinks in an near empty QF lounge - but a full dinner and all drinks, AND a Texas barbecue next day AND a guided tour of the Continental 'behind the scenes tour' of the Houston airport. AND a question and answer session by the top brass.

No officious little twits backed up by muscled security guards tossing out CO Platinums over there. A rather interesting comparison.

This was part of the the CO offer as posted on FT:

On April 1st and 2nd we are having a HUGE party, tour, speech, and dinners with the TOP 5 Executives of CO. Larry Kellner (CO CEO) will give a special speech and take questions on Saturday, after our special behind the scenes tour of the airport. Then we will have dinner compliments of CO.

Friday, has developed into the FlyerTalk party night. We have a band hired (lead by a CO employee!) and CO has again, very graciously picked up the tab for our very own Texas Backyard BBQ! This is your ONLY chance to meet Randy Petersen, as he has another commitment Saturday. The hours for Fridays event at the Airport Marriott are 7pm-12am. The Saturday hours will be posted Tuesday.

There are hotel discounts available for as low as $59 at the Hyatt and slightly higher at the Marriott Airport.

CO is offering discounts off airfare.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407636

As Derryn Hinch used to say :

Shame, Shame, Shame.

This little 'Airport Manager' twit, was clearly totally out of his depth, and has probably caused more ill-will and bad feelings towards Qantas on FT than any single employee has for years. If anyone senior at Qantas Frequent Flyer reads this, (and I know you do) I do hope he has that message conveyed to him loud and clear.

Wongo

Actually, I can recall AirNZ Elite was not allowed in lounge when not flying.
I was flying Biz that time, my boss was Gold Elite. The dragons booted him out when he went there with me.
After I returned, we went to SIN and HKG, the rules changed again. Kiwiflyer, did you remember this happening to you like 2 years ago?

Why CO did it, after the event, they will have 165+ people telling how good CO is to them... If everyone of the 165 told 2 people and stops at that level. I think the future revenue from converted flyers are worth more then $10,000 they paid for beer and food.
This is great for customer service case study!!!!
QF should read what other airlines do to attract and retain customers not to p|$$ them off.
After this event, I think I've other things to do with my money that was going toward QP life.

StevePER

I agree that the way QF handled this situation was an embarrassment. Obviously the terms and conditions of the program weren't designed with an event like this in mind, but if QF aren't willing to stand by their own conditions then they shouldn't have set them in the first place. I was one of many who had valid boarding passes for the afternoon, and exercised my right to bring in a non-travelling guest. The ejection of our group using threats made over the PA system was bizarre. The decision to leave in a dignified manner without causing a scene was a credit to our group.

I will be writing my letter to QF on Monday.

Steve

RichardMEL

I've had a good long sleep and a think and now it's time to add my 2 cents to this page.

First of all - there was never any doubt in my mind that QF had the right to eject and/or refuse whoever they wanted - it was not really a question as to if it was in the T&C's or not.

Second - as others have said - and I observed at the time - this was a PR disaster for QF. I can understand that given they knew (and the fact that they showed up within 5 minutes of us entering the lounge meant that they were well prepared - I heard one person suggest that they were tipped off because "nobody goes to that part of the lounge on a Saturday" (referring to the now ex-FT corner) is just crazy. It's a big lounge and people can (and do) sit where they please.

I think, if QF didn't like the idea of all these people coming in the lounge they could have done several things - they could have asked us when we passed reception for one - and thus not have caused embarassment or problems for the other customers (members & guests) inside.

Second, if they didn't want to use it as a great PR opportunity as others have suggested, I am sure had Nick come up to us and said quietly "Listen folks, I am aware you're here from the FT group and I'd like to make you welcome but can I ask you respect the club and be as quiet as possible and consume minimum drinks"(or something) then we, I am sure, would have been fine and said "ok, we understand and apprieciate that" - we would have quietly done our thing, not bothered anyone else and still left with a reasonable impression of QF.

The way it was handled was a shambles - not only for the FT group, but for all the other uninvolved people in the lounge who would have got hit by this.

One other thing. When Nick stopped by our group of 4 to check for BP's etc he said something like "The group were involved in a scam to get access" - I find the use of the word scam to be pretty objectionable. That implies that we were either trying to falsely steal product or service from QF, or aquire stuff we otherwise weren't entitled to. As ozstamps (& others) have said we had enough platnums, golds & QC members to totally be abiding by the rules of entrance, as stated by QF, to be in there.

Now if we were using forged boarding passes, or something like that to get in - then sure.. that would be a scam, but we were not. I felt like I was guilty or something when I was using my rights as a PAID QC member.

As for the amount of drink and/or food that might have been consumed by the group - I am sure it was far less than the cost of one year's QC membership. I paid for 4 - there's no way they could even suggest there was a financial issue here.

Again, the astounding thing is that they KNEW they had high level elite customers there, worth many many thousands of dollars of revenue (remmeber, this isn't like UA's 1K status from cheap internal flights in Thailand) - it's serious money in anyone's language to aquire QF Plat status. Added to that it's people who have bought legitimate QC membership who wished to use the services they paid for. I believe the actions on Saturday were the result of short sightness and a lack of forward thinking on their part. Had they nicely asked us (and NOT made public PA announcements) to keep it cool, and not misuse the facilities (I saw the manager having words with the barstaff that appeared to be along the lines of 'don't serve these scammers' - though I am unsure how the poor bargirl was supposed to determine for herself who the 'scammers' were) then we would have co-operated.

I wonder if in hindsight the management might have reviewed how it was handled. Sounds like they didn't if they were instructing receptionists to check that WP's were flying.

I am sure the platnum "free entry" right will be shortly removed. Is it our fault? I don't think so.

It is a pity they decided to show the worse side of Australian hospitality to our overseas visitors who no doubt will seriously NOT consider QF when it comes to making travel plans. It's funny coming from a country that is supposed to be so laid back and hospitable - and they may find that the bad publicity this generates with the word of mouth is worth more in lost future revenue and goodwill than what it was worth to go through and evict those people in the lounge on Saturday.

It is true that QF has the right to do as they please on their private property and within their rules - but, given that they knew the group was coming and that this was not a knee jerk reaction to a perceived threat, but a planned response, they could have handled it in a far better way, and I hope any QF people reading this involved might take this into consideration.

ozstamps

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful attribute.

FYI Qantas were simply not interested IIRC last year for OzFest #1. And one therefore could assume the same lack of interest applied this year.

I recall thadocta gathered the top elite Status of a number of folks who attended OzFest #1 with a view to hoping QF might invite such a diverse and super high flying/spending small group of International visitors in as a courtesy, to visit the huge and deserted lounge and have a drink, and that fell on deaf QF ears. So we again used the same system.

Glen

Wongo

QF don't want people to see empty lounges
How about everyone buy a fully refundable ticket on Ozfest 3? I am sure they can't kick you out. They will have sold out Y seats before K or M class. We are still within rules this year they boot us out... I mean, if 10 Plat purchased fully refundable ticket, It will be allowed 30 people to enter QP. Plus a few gold get a tickets. That will screw QF revenue management up. But we are still withing rules... 2 Guest for WP is standard through out OW. I think they cannot change that.
O, how about rememeber to bring a "friend" next time you visit QP Int Lounge for the people who cannot access it.

perthite

I somewhat suspected that this may have been the case. Given that the expense of doing this would be fairly minimal to QF that they would have given the idea more of a hearing.

tuapekastar

I am many flying miles away from being WP, but am a QP member. If I and/or my guest was refused entry to/ejected from the QP in direct contradiction of the published t & c's, and in as insensitive a manner as appears to have happened in this instance, I would be deeply upset and embarrassed, and there is clearly considerable upset and embarrassment being expressed in this thread.

But all the expressed outrage in the world is not going to make a difference to QF. The only outrage they would take notice of is in their hip pocket, and I don't know, but rather doubt, if the QF WP'ers affected by this have the personal/company influence to make or threaten a large enough dent in the QF revenue area, by taking their business elsewhere, to be noticed. Either individually or collectively. Which is a damned shame because such an arrogant display of rudeness and contempt, especially with top-tier (if you exclude CL) customers should not be allowed to just pass away unnoticed. The attitude of the QF man on the day beggars belief!!

It could make a nice story on one of those alleged nightly "Current Affairs" shows on the box, but sadly I imagine would make no significant difference. Anyway, to kick up a lot of fuss could potentially mean cutting off your noses to spite your faces, and I can understand why that would not be a desirable option. Would still like to see QF cop their right whack over this though...

Appears from other threads that the rest of the w/end went well and people enjoyed themselves, so congrats to the organiser(s). It's never easy trying to organise many peoples' activities so sounds like a job well done (unlike QF).