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-   Practical Travel Safety and Security Issues (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues-686/)
-   -   Official TSA Form: "Unpredictable screening" (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/944850-official-tsa-form-unpredictable-screening.html)

ND Sol Apr 20, 2009 9:10 pm


Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 11615988)
Because he has Reasonable Suspicion. Just as the LEO did in St. Louis. With that he might be able to generate Probable Cause, and thereby find authorization for a more in-depth discussion.

What reasonable suspicion? He had less than $5,000 on him and was on a domestic itinerary.

Any luck on finding out if metal butter knives are permitted through your checkpoint? I do want to ensure that I am following TSA rules.

FliesWay2Much Apr 20, 2009 10:36 pm


Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 11607337)
Utterly amazing. All these self appointed security experts and none with a clue about security. Gee am I glad that none of you are in charge of security anywhere, we would all be speaking Farsi and stoning those with a beer in their fridge.

<snip>

The ignorance displayed in this thread is absolutely amazing. You folks complain about security, yet completely miss the intent of the programs and then make our point by complaining about the unpredictability of programs that are designed to be unpredictable. Congratulations folks. If I thought that the traveling public was smart this group would be cause to change that.

Ron, with all due respect and humility, I would be happy to compare resumes anytime. Your perspective of "security" is constrained by your airport and the procedures you are given. Many of us on this board, including myself, have had real interactions with real senior managers of both the TSA and the DHS. Many of us have the clearances which allow us access to the raw information that eventually turns into "SOP" and "SSI" information. Many of us, with decades of experience in the national security business, have very different views and perspectives about what the raw information tells us. We have advocated and, on occasion, published opposing views, albeit in classified channels.

If you, given your perspective, could have had the opportunity to broaden your horizons and see what we have seen, I suspect you're a bright enough guy to conclude that you are being used as pawns in personal agendas. Believe me, in the grand scheme of things, your job is to portray an illusion of "security" to the public and that's it. That's really too bad, because way too many innocent Americans are being caught in the crossfire.

What we experience at America's airports as personified by all of you wearing the spiffy blue "intimidating" uniforms is simply a manifestation of a series of really bad decisions made since 9/11/2001.

Ari Apr 20, 2009 10:54 pm


Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 11615988)
Because he has Reasonable Suspicion. Just as the LEO did in St. Louis.

Reasonble suspicion of what? :confused:

NY-FLA Apr 21, 2009 10:09 am


Originally Posted by L-1011 (Post 11615468)
In all my 40+ years of international flying I don't think I have ever seen a Boarding Pass with the whole itinerary printed on it. Most airlines do not staple all BPs together. And if someone would do that, I would very quickly separate them and give you the single BP you need to do your job.

And yes, I am a security professional. A card-carrying ASIS member at that.

Not that TSORon has much idea what he's writing about, but Northwest airlines, the smallest of the majors, does currently do this, at least for domestic itins. Stapling? might be an individual TA preference.
Likelihood of WTMD minder caring or recognizing an international itin? I would estimate < 1%. Likelihood of this info transferring accurately to X-ray minder who then recognizes real big cash $$$ on X-ray image? (~1%squared), ie 1 in 10,000.
Likelihood of the X-ray minder recognizing lump o'cash $$$ on X-ray image and working back to determine pax is on int'l itin? much higher.
Likelihood if pax has any wit, and a >1 leg boarding pass? Effectively "0"

L-1011 Apr 21, 2009 10:39 am


Originally Posted by NY-FLA (Post 11618886)
Not that TSORon has much idea what he's writing about, but Northwest airlines, the smallest of the majors, does currently do this, at least for domestic itins.

OK, my fault. I think I flew NW once in the mid-80's so the slip is excusable, I hope. :cool:

Lumpy Apr 21, 2009 12:44 pm

Anybody who is still willing to line up for the likes of the TSORons out there (at least he is an HONEST representative of TSA's pledged "dignity and respect" clauses) deserves EXACTLY what you get.

My momma never did raise such a stupid child.

Have fun bending over, paxs. Sucks to be you...

Boggie Dog Apr 21, 2009 1:26 pm


Originally Posted by Lumpy (Post 11619863)
Anybody who is still willing to line up for the likes of the TSORons out there (at least he is an HONEST representative of TSA's pledged "dignity and respect" clauses) deserves EXACTLY what you get.

My momma never did raise such a stupid child.

Have fun bending over, paxs. Sucks to be you...

What is really amazing is that TSA has to have a form so they can plan how to be unpredictable.

N965VJ Apr 21, 2009 3:01 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 11620147)
What is really amazing is that TSA has to have a form so they can plan how to be unpredictable.

What a waste of paper, everyone already knows the TSA is unpredictable.

You know, like when a TSO says that only plastic butter knives are allowed.

NY-FLA Apr 21, 2009 3:08 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 11620147)
What is really amazing is that TSA has to have a form so they can plan how to be unpredictable.

Well, obviously you don't unnerstand, you're not a securitie profffessionall. (TM) You must have strayed off the "path of knowledge"

:D:D:D

jkhuggins Apr 21, 2009 7:15 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 11620147)
What is really amazing is that TSA has to have a form so they can plan how to be unpredictable.

Actually, that part of the plan makes sense. It's incredibly difficult for people to "unpredictably" pick people/items for special attention; we all tend to default into patterns, or let our personal biases/prejudices affect who/what we pick. Having some sort of formal guidance as to how to execute an "unpredictable" plan actually makes a great deal of sense.

AngryMiller Apr 21, 2009 7:33 pm


Originally Posted by jkhuggins (Post 11622015)
Actually, that part of the plan makes sense. It's incredibly difficult for people to "unpredictably" pick people/items for special attention; we all tend to default into patterns, or let our personal biases/prejudices affect who/what we pick. Having some sort of formal guidance as to how to execute an "unpredictable" plan actually makes a great deal of sense.

When doing QC work, the USAF used a baby food jar with 5 pennies in it. All come up heads and the the piece of equipment got the full QC. Worked pretty well but we would have to trust the keeper of the jar to not steal the pennies.

VideoPaul Apr 21, 2009 10:55 pm


Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 11614582)
I disagree. "probable cause" means probable cause that a crime has been committed. Seeing $20,000 of cash on a person traveling internationally says nothing about whether that person filed the proper form or not and you don't have "probable cause" to question about that money unless you have some evidence that the form wasn't submitted. Otherwise, you have what's known as a "fishing expedition", which is quite illegal.

That's true everywhere but with the TSA. They break their own rules, are accountable to no one, and "cause" means " 'cause we said so." If the TSA were accountable to some higher authority, where citizens could bring action to seek redress of their grievances (as guaranteed in the constitution) instead of the TSA simply saying "For reasons of national security" then your above remarks would hold true for the TSA. The problem is, the TSA has magically exempted itself from those requirements.

--PP

TSORon Apr 22, 2009 9:35 am


Originally Posted by ND Sol (Post 11616163)
What reasonable suspicion? He had less than $5,000 on him and was on a domestic itinerary.

The reasonable suspicion was established for the LEO by the TSO. Its pretty common practice in the law enforcement community, and well founded in law, for a LEO to take their reasonable suspicion from a reputable source.


Any luck on finding out if metal butter knives are permitted through your checkpoint? I do want to ensure that I am following TSA rules.
OK, I guess its time to get around to finishing this thought for you. I’m quite sad that you were unable to finish it yourself, but then again you are not by your own admission, a security expert.

Butter knives are examined, being long bit of metal, and if they have a sharp edge on them then they should not be allowed. Most butter knives do not have a sharp edge, and therefore provide no cause for concern. Some do.

Now, I know that you are biting at the bit to split that hair just one more time, can you refrain from making that reaction without bursting a blood vessel?

L-1011 Apr 22, 2009 10:34 am


Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 11624793)

Originally Posted by ND Sol
What reasonable suspicion? He had less than $5,000 on him and was on a domestic itinerary.

The reasonable suspicion was established for the LEO by the TSO. Its pretty common practice in the law enforcement community, and well founded in law, for a LEO to take their reasonable suspicion from a reputable source.

You still have not answered what reasonable suspicion was present? Will you provide that, or is this just another round of hot air from you?

Superguy Apr 22, 2009 11:17 am


Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 11624793)
The reasonable suspicion was established for the LEO by the TSO. Its pretty common practice in the law enforcement community, and well founded in law, for a LEO to take their reasonable suspicion from a reputable source.

Again, please tell us what the reasonablel suspicion was, considering that no law was broken and there was no contraband?

You repeatedly dodge this question. Maybe you have me on ignore.

Considering situations like this, I have a hard time finding TSA to be a reputable source.


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