ilgoldstein

Rhetorical question my son asked. It's a solid!

Steelehc

Technically, you probably could. In reality...

RichardKenner

It's a good rhetorical question because it goes to the heart of the silliness of the liquid rules. Early on, I asked that question of an American Airlines agent (the TSA was saying "check with your airlines to see what you can take"), mostly to give him a hard time. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Can I take ice on a plane?
Agent: No.
Me: Why, it's a solid.
Agent: Yes, but it'll melt.
Me: So will aluminum, steel, and copper. So I can't take any coins with me because they'll melt?
Agent: Those are OK.
Me: Why? They melt. In fact, almost everything melts at some combination of temperature and pressure.
Agent: Yes, but ice melts at a cold temperature.
Me: So you're saying there's a minimum permitted melting point?
Agent: I guess so.
Me: What is it? There are lot of things that melt at "reasonable" temperatures, like chocolate, butter ...
Agent: I don't know.
Me: How do I find out?
Agent: Ask the TSA.
Me: I did. They said "ask your airline".
Agent: Sorry, I can't help you.
Me: Let me speak to your supervisor.

Then essentially the same discussion occured with the supervisor.

stupidhead

I swear, one of the preliminary qualifications required to work in aviation security is a frontal lobotomy. That's the only way you can try to enforce those nonsensical rules.

Crazyace718

It is allowed when used to keep medicine and food cold.

thebat

Who looked more foolish after this dialogue, you or the agent?

RadioGirl

^

Back when I was in school, life was simple: everything was a solid, liquid or gas, and stuff changed from one to the other depending on temperature/pressure. While physicists have identified other states of matter, the basic three have been pretty useful for most daily purposes.

Until TSA, who invented two more state of matters: frozen gels and frozen liquid. From their own website:
Note that the properties of these new states depend on the purpose to which they are put - frozen liquids doing something noble like cooling medicine is harmless, while frozen liquids doing something prosaic like cooling your lunch or just sitting there in your water bottle is dangerous. This is a significant discovery in physics and chemistry, and I'm disappointed that the TSA hasn't been approached by the Nobel Prize committee.

thegeneral

I think the distinction is at room temperature. Comparing something that is a liquid at room temperature to something that is a liquid at ~2500F isn't really a valid comparison. You could nitpick about any rule anywhere that has any finite value included.

Why is it ok to bring $9,999 out of the country but not $10,000. Why is it safe to drive 65, but 66 is crazy. Why is it safe to drink at 21, but not 21 less a day. In the end, rules need such values to act as guidelines.

Should you have a problem with something like the liquids ban, why not resurrect one of the hundreds of threads dealing specifically with it. In the end, if you're going to limit liquids, you need to have finite rules about how much they are limited. Otherwise, you'd be relying completely on what the TSA screener felt was reasonable that day and nobody would have any idea of what would and wouldn't be ok to take with them.

LegalTender

Screeners DO allow personal care products they consider inert that slightly exceed volume limits.

Some do, some don't.

Steelehc

Well, so, can I bring liquid mercury on an airplane? What if it's in a 3.4oz jar in a 1qt bag?

I don't think it's a nitpick at all. The rules say, "no liquids or gels." Notwithstanding the vagueness of that rule, ice is clearly NOT a liquid OR a gel. It is a solid, every bit as much as, say, aluminum.

amlothi

"no liquids or gels" does not mean "all solids are therefore OK"

FWIW, I am not in favor of the liquid bans. However, let's be clear on what the rules are saying and what they aren't.


The purpose of the ice does not make it any more or less safe. For health reasons, they can't deny medication for someone who is sick and may need it during flight. If that medication is required to be stored at 4C, than you need ice/ice packs or a portable battery powered refrigeration unit. Since most people don't have the latter, they make an exception for ice used to cool medicine.

It seems that the rules are pretty clear. The answer is no, you cannot bring ice on board a plane.......... UNLESS you meet one of these criteria in which a reasonable amount is allowed for health reasons.

Argument over whether or not this rule is fair / makes us safer belongs in another thread.

Boggie Dog

TSA has deemed liquids, gels and aerosols over certain quantities dangerous.

By allowing any exceptions TSA demonstrates a lack of belief in the base rule.

These items are either dangerous or they are not.

Frozen H20 is not a liquid if maintained under suitable conditions.

It is most dangerous when used as an ingredient in Kool Aide which seems to be the beverage of choice at TSA.

TheRoadie

And since the bad guys can read, TSA should assume they know the exemptions, and will present themselves and their explosive ice using one of the allowed exemptions.

The TSA's targets are the stupid, illiterate terrorists, of which there must be a horrible shortage.

As you said, any exemption allowed will be the loophole used by the clever, educated terrorist. So they might as well admit it's all theatre, and let us get back to carrying our 32 oz. iced soft drink cups on board.

chococat

A practical solution to your hypothetical question... if something needs to be kept cold, pack it in a cooler with a couple bags of frozen peas. No problem.

thegeneral

So the TSA should create a legalese explanation that says substances that are solids at room temperature are not allowed or should they just assume that, as the vast majority of travelers do, people would get what they mean. Perhaps the explanation should include a definition of what matter is, another explanation of how everything we know is just a theory, including how planes fly, and we're not really sure of anything. It could also include an explanation about energy and ambient temperature and how that has an impact on the states of matter. Of course, they would have to include detailed information regarding matter itself, how some substances have different melting and boiling points. That should be a good, long confusing explanation that would make a credit cards terms and conditions look simple. Of course, the TSA just assumes that people are normal, reasonable folk who are able to understand what they mean by the liquid ban. Given how few times this has really even been a subject of discussion on the anti-TSA forum on a frequent flyer website, I think they are probably correct.

The rule about carry-on bags say one bag and one personal item. They could create a long detailed explanation of this explaining the instances of where this rule might not apply and give every single specific instance of any exception to the rule, but in the end, they just assume that people won't be sitting around with tin foil hats on talking about how the TSA is trying to undermine society in general.

Someone bringing on medication, etc, does stand out. They are seemingly trying to find the balance between security and convenience. Should you not like the liquids rule, then go to one of the dozens of threads about it. This thread, is about the state of matter of an item being brought on board, not the overall validity of the liquids ban.

By the way, you can bring a 32oz iced soft drink on board. You just have to buy it after security. I don't recall seeing people bring large soft drink cups through security on a regular basis before the liquids ban.

Those conditions being below the melting point for water. Reasonable people are able to understand this. Should you have difficulties with it, just ask to see a supervisor the next time you try to bring ice through security. It sounds like it will take a while, but I think they can explain to you or give you a long visual explanation of what happens to water at room temperature.