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-   Practical Travel Safety and Security Issues (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues-686/)
-   -   Worst-case terrorist scenario (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/748076-worst-case-terrorist-scenario.html)

CessnaJock Oct 19, 2007 4:27 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 8589108)
magiciansampras, come on. The comic books say it's possible. :D

This, from the same poster who gave us "There are exceptions but they are the exceptions."

PhlyingRPh Oct 19, 2007 4:40 pm

I think they should stick to the important things like bottles of water and eau-de-cologne - that's where the real danger lies.

bocastephen Oct 19, 2007 4:44 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8587780)
Easy fix - don't allow parking near the glideslope antennae - and scan for RF noise around airports.

Don't allow? That is totally unworkable. Besides the roads that loop around almost all our airports, there are parking garages which have line of sight to antennas, and public roads off airport property which could be used as bases to jam the receivers onboard.

Sorry, but a reactionary 'just ban everything' approach to security is neither workable, nor prudent.

Risk management is key....anyway, why get so bent over this scenario while cargo remains unscreened and through-the-fence employees are not screened, nor are their facilities really sterile.

We have bigger fish to fry than chase pie in the sky scenarios.

Superguy Oct 19, 2007 4:47 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8588315)
You mean their box-cutters would have passed manual, magnetometer, and x-ray screening? I never realized that.

A lot gets thru. Wouldn't surprise me to see a box cutter get thru. People get pocket knives thru all the time.


I can buy a WiFi sniffer for ten bucks. How much do you think it would cost to equip each airplane with a dozen wearable broadband alarms for the crew's use?
Maybe. But those also emit RF which runs contrary to the very thing you're trying to protect against. Can't have it both ways.


What ban?
The one you seemed to advocate.


"Adequate protection" has a numerator and a denominator. When the safety of many hundreds of people is involved, a certain magnitude of outlay is justifiable.
But you also have to look at the big picture and look at it statistically. Statistically speaking, you're looking at a nonthreat. I don't think you could really justify it as it would cost significantly more to protect against the "threat" then the damage that would be caused if the threat were realized.

Superguy Oct 19, 2007 4:49 pm


Originally Posted by law dawg (Post 8588329)
Absolutely.......
...hey, was that a jab? ;)

If the shoe fits ... ;)

Superguy Oct 19, 2007 4:49 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8588343)

Stand corrected.

Superguy Oct 19, 2007 4:51 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8588375)
Because more Americans can be killed by targeting fly-by-wire widebody jumbos, and that is the avowed intent of the jihadists.

I disagree. The vowed intent of the jihadists is to eradicate Israel. The US is a target because we support Israel and muck in the politics of the Middle East (and elsewhere in the world).

America is not the only target of jihadists. I don't think terrorists necessarily care who they kill, just as long as they can cause a lot of terror with a little bit of resources. If they hit Americans, so much the better.

Superguy Oct 19, 2007 4:53 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8589067)
This is the correct context: "THIRD PRINCIPLE: Do Not Underestimate. He who lacks foresight and underestimates his enemy will surely be captured by him." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

You shouldn't overestimate either.

GUWonder Oct 19, 2007 5:08 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8589283)
This, from the same poster who gave us "There are exceptions but they are the exceptions."

It's not that hard to grasp what those words mean. Do I need to spell it out for you?


Originally Posted by Superguy (Post 8589423)
You shouldn't overestimate either.

Come on, the comic books say it's possible. So this must be the biggest fish in the sea to catch. :D

797-3 Oct 19, 2007 5:17 pm

I've thought of several ways to create mayhem but I'm not going to give people ideas. I hate it when they do it to planes. They should double the penalty for terrorist attacks against planes and airports.....kill them 2 times over.

Wainwright Oct 19, 2007 5:34 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8587520)
If you go over the links in this thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=619038 you will find any quantity of both anecdotal and systematic evidence that electronic devices can interfere with aircraft control and navigation systems.

Now suppose you are a terrorist cell intent upon bringing down a few dozen U.S.-flag airliners (as in the Manila plot) and you know that broadband RF noise of sufficient power could do it. Remember - these people are fanatical, not stupid.

Could you disguise your device as a laptop or GameBoy and walk right onto a plane with it? Or build a timer into it and secrete it in a checked bag or cargo shipment?

I can think of more frightening scenarios than that.

With all the problems surrounding electronics on planes, I would like to think that many of the issues you have, have been discussed during aircraft design.

CessnaJock Oct 19, 2007 7:07 pm


Originally Posted by Wainwright (Post 8589607)
I can think of more frightening scenarios than that.

So can I - without even working at it. But this one is fairly cheap to enforce.


Originally Posted by Wainwright (Post 8589607)
With all the problems surrounding electronics on planes, I would like to think that many of the issues you have, have been discussed during aircraft design.

I would like to think so, too. But aircraft engineers of every stripe - airframe, powerplant, and avionics - have that old weight constraint line in their linear models. They do everything they know how to about imaginable scenarios (including lightning), but my guess would be that extraordinary amounts of RF noise directed at electronics are outside of their box - and weight limit. Cf. the architectural engineers who designed the Twin Towers.

birdstrike Oct 19, 2007 7:26 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8587780)
Easy fix - don't allow parking near the glideslope antennae - and scan for RF noise around airports.

:D And level all the hotels off the approach end of a runway. ^

birdstrike Oct 19, 2007 7:34 pm


Originally Posted by CessnaJock (Post 8587611)
"One who lacks strategic planning and underestimates the enemy will be captured."
Sun-Tzu The Art of War

A favorite text of beginning martial arts students.

A pity he failed to anticipate copyright laws. :p

This is the kind of thinking that the NTSB typically highlights as an early link in an accident chain.

CessnaJock Oct 20, 2007 10:38 am


Originally Posted by birdstrike (Post 8590316)
:D And level all the hotels off the approach end of a runway. ^

The glideslope transmitter is 1,000 feet down the runway from the threshold, and the localizer transmitter is at its far end. Equipment powerful enough to disrupt the ILS at that range wouldn't even fit in a hotel room, much less be carried there in a suitcase. Anyway, waiting for instrument conditions that would make the landing phase vulnerable could be very tedious - and many airports never have Cat II, much less Cat III weather.

But if a laptop-sized RF broadband noise generator were located a few feet from a critical harness of aircraft wiring, who knows what havoc could be wrought?


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