essxjay

Idiot girl. Sleep in the lights on, too, so the Bogeyman won't get you?

Superguy

Looking at the poll there are three options:

"Is security tight enough at Sky Harbor Airport?

* Yes, I feel safe
* No, there are too many holes
* I'm not sure"

The question should be: "Is TSA providing adequate security at the airport?"

Options should be should be:

*Yes, they're doing a good job
*No, they're only window dresssing and harassment and we need real security
*I'll defer to Spiff

DiscoPapa

Yes, I know what "overrated" means. By you saying that "the need for airport security is overrated," what would that exactly entail? Can you have a lesser need for airport security? I was drawing a conclusion from your statement that you meant 'unnecessary'...forgive me if I am wrong. But your statement leads into that generalization.

By no means do I think the TSA is doing an perfect job at keeping us secure. There is a TON of room for improvement, and I'm not an experienced enough traveler to suggest most of the necessary improvements (I'll leave that to the veteran FT community). But since 9/11, we have had zero attacks involving the airlines. A few had been thwarted (maybe not by TSA, maybe so). "Worthless" as they may be, their track record so far at least in my books is pretty darn good.

Superguy

Their track record is as good as my magic rock that protects the US from terrorist attacks with planes. Its track record is just as good. How do you know it's TSA working and not my magic rock?

DiscoPapa

Look, I'm not about to get into an argument comparing the TSA to a "magic rock." The level of comparison is enough to stop it right there. I'll re-iterate my point and be done with it... I do not think the TSA is perfect, and there is a ton of things to improve with it. But as of now, the TSA is better than nothing, and way better than your magic rock. I feel safer with people having to walk through x-ray machines and getting their bags searched/scanned. If you prefer to hold onto your magic rock, so be it.

Superguy

My whole point was that corellation doesn't equal causation. Problem with TSA is we're getting a whole lot of nothing for the $5+ billion we spend on it.

X-rays: ^

WTMD: ^

Puffers/ETD: ^

Shoe carnival, liquid carnival, ID checks, general harassment by TSA, etc:

DiscoPapa

If the powers that be (TSA admin.) feel that threats could come in the form of shoe bombs (re: Richard Reid) or liquids (re: 2006 TATL UK-US liquid plot), then I feel that having to remove our shoes or keep carry-on liquids to a specified amount is a necessary thing to do. Sure, it's a pain-in-the-rear to have to take off your shoes, belt, take out your bag of small liquids, etc. But it's been proven that terrorists are willing to use those measures to attack us. Proven! I think we ought to be willing to sacrifice a small piece of our own discomfort in order to ensure that adequate measures can be taken for everyone's safety. Is grandma trying to sneak a bomb on the plane when she tries to walk through with her bottle of water? Of course not. But because of these terrorists nut-jobs, we have to take certain precautionary measures. I hope the TSA can figure out a way to safely roll-back the "higher-than 3.4 ounces" liquid ban and for us to be able to keep our shoes on. But until then, I'm more than happy to oblige.

Superguy

And the 3 ^ methods I described would take care of all that without harassment and stupidity that we experience now.

X-rays do not detect shoe bombs. Puffers and ETD's will, yet they're hardly used. If there's metal in the shoe, the WTMD will pick it up. I also had an article that TSA and the FBI had not recorded even a SINGLE shoe bomb attempt since Richard Reid. I'd take those odds with the billions of shoes that are screened every year.

The liquid carnival is a farce. He's just one article written about it to debunk it:

http://www.theregister.com/2006/08/1...t_terror_labs/

Risk can never be eliminated. Only reduced. With TSA focusing on these miniscule threats and diverting precious resources, it ignores real threats like all that cargo that goes unscreened on a plane. Think all that cargo (not pax bags) going underneath you is screened? Sure, you might be "safe" from a shoe bomb (if one even exists anymore) but won't be from a package containing a bomb.

There's debris over Locherby, Scotland because of such a bomb. It's a proven terrorist tool and has been used far more frequently. Yet how much of that cargo is screened and what is being done to prevent it? Single digit percentage so pretty much nothing.

I'd rather BE safe than FEEL safe. And quite honestly, TSA does neither for me. TSA needs to actually spend the money on stuff that will detect real threats rather than using the Kabuki methods now.

Super

DiscoPapa

I definitely agree with you on the cargo issue. Big time problem, there. I watched the AA "Week in the Life" special and was blown (no pun intended) away at about how lax the cargo screening is.

Superguy

They need more than a trusted shipper program. If FedEx wants to assume the risk with the packages on their planes, that's their business. Going below a common carrier ... more needs to be done.

Spiff

Your argument is specious.

As others have pointed out, zero successful attacks (hell, zero attacks) could be attributed to many things, including the so-called "terrorist threat" being grossly overstated by cowards who want to keep their unnecessary Workfare jobs to Magic Rocks and other equally-plausible conclusions for the absence of attacks.

May I have $5 to buy some more Magic Rocks?

Spiff

What are you going to say when these incompetent morons feel that dropping your pants is necessary?

These idiots are lying to you.

If you would like to discuss any of the so-called "security" measures in minute, scientific detail, I'm happy to do it. And so are many others.

Superguy has already offered excellent scientific proof that the Shoe Carnival and Liquid Idiocy are both unnecessary harassment that accomplish nothing. Would you care to offer any evidence that they are at all effective? Please, use big words. Go as deeply as you like into molecular chemistry, engineering, etc - no subject or topic is off-limits or too complex.

Kip Hawley is a liar. The TSA is a Workfare program that does nothing to prevent explosives from passing through the checkpoint. Ample evidence exists that credible weapons can and have been brought past the checkpoint because Kip Hawley the Jackass has screeners focusing on shoes and liquids instead of guns and bombs. Kip Hawley should be prosecuted for criminal negligence and then stripped of his citizenship.

Please, tell me you have a better argument than "I trust Idiot Boy Kippie". I would be pleased to engage you on any level, other than a belief in magic or morons.

Bouncer

Which indicates that you simply do not know what you're talking about. You think a physical presence of personnel is equivalent to security. You also have a complete misunderstanding of the technology involved and what it can and cannot do.

The Walk Through Metal Detector (WTMD) is NOT an X-RAY machine. It will never, ever pick up or detect an explosive. Nor a ceramic or glass or any non metal weapon.

The X-Ray machine is not a chemical compound detector. It will never, ever, detect an explosive.

And it is explosives which threaten the airship at this point. Not knives. Not screwdrivers. Because the reinforcing of the cockpit door and mandating that they be closed and locked during flight is the ONE REAL security change which is preventing any additional hijackings.

So let's review.

The X-Ray machine will NOT detect explosives. We send our bottles of liquids and gels through it.. why?

Theater, that's why. To make people such as yourself think that something is occurring when it's not.

No person before or since Richard Reid has ever been caught trying to ignite something in his shoes. We take off our shoes why? Because 1 person in literally 100 million tried something one time. Is that statistically significant? 1 in 100 million? If his shoes HAD been X-rayed would it have detected the explosive? No? Then why are we doing it?

More theater for the unknowing, or unthinking.

When you are in that line next time I suggest you look out the window at all the unscreened cargo being loaded on your aircraft. As you do, perhaps it'll make you realize that we have massive holes in our security infrastructure, yet we still play an expensive game with the public, trying to convince them that we have things under control. Because it's easier and politically safer to do that than to acknowledge the risk.

I am not trying to be unkind, but you have been led down a garden path and been made to believe something which simply is not true.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

coachrowsey

Spiff....you have a majic way of saying things. Right on.

coachrowsey

Very well put.