The Economist: Watch That Twitch
Jun 16, 2007, 4:02 pm
#16
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I actually support pre-clearance as the lesser of two evils... I don't like it, but it seems better than their current nonsense.
Neither my credit score nor the underwire in my bra is any of the government's damn business w/o probable cause, nor do they have any business screaming in my face or anyone else's -- for ANY reason.
Just let me on the flippin' aircraft!
Last edited by essxjay; Jun 16, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Jun 16, 2007, 4:07 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
I'm confused. We get on TSOs for becoming slaves to the process (liquid ban, anyone?) then, when they look past the minutiae of enforcing the "silly rules" and do something looking for actual bad people we get on them some more?
Do we give them a way out or is anything they do just crappy?
I'd agree.
But let's talk some more about that underwire.....
BAD DAWG!! BAD DAWG!!
<Law Dawg goes and sits in the corner.....>
Do we give them a way out or is anything they do just crappy?
Neither my credit score nor the underwire in my bra is any of the government's damn business w/o probable cause, nor do they have any business screaming in my face or anyone else's -- for ANY reason.
Just let me on the flippin' aircraft!
Just let me on the flippin' aircraft!
But let's talk some more about that underwire.....
BAD DAWG!! BAD DAWG!!
<Law Dawg goes and sits in the corner.....>
Jun 16, 2007, 4:16 pm
#18
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The dog and pony show we have now will be even worse when the TSA are "trusted" for "discrimination". Then we'll have people drafted into a show -- involuntarily -- all for making some feel safe.
Jun 16, 2007, 4:24 pm
#19
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I'm confused. We get on TSOs for becoming slaves to the process (liquid ban, anyone?) then, when they look past the minutiae of enforcing the "silly rules" and do something looking for actual bad people we get on them some more?
Do we give them a way out or is anything they do just crappy?
Do we give them a way out or is anything they do just crappy?
What actions their superiors and administrators have tried to justify in the last five years or so as a reasonable to this search is what I and many others here question. Weighing these justifications against our constituted freedoms and liberties; our privacy concerns; questionable due process at times; and economic (taxpayer) expense results in the heady discussions about what principles our government is operating under.
What Mats seems to suggest is that the TSA spends a lot of $$$ spinning its wheels over talking about, defining the mission of, getting bids on and building prototype schemes and analytical algorithms rather than "just doing it." He says quite succinctly:
"Given my limited experience with profiling interviews in South America, Europe, and Israel, there is nothing magical about behavioral analysis. The legendary Israeli security seems to be based on the notion of, 'see if the story checks out.' "
But let's talk some more about that underwire.....
BAD DAWG!! BAD DAWG!!
<Law Dawg goes and sits in the corner.....>
BAD DAWG!! BAD DAWG!!
<Law Dawg goes and sits in the corner.....>
That's another discussion, under a different handle, for another time, at a different Web site.
Last edited by essxjay; Jun 16, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Jun 16, 2007, 5:24 pm
#20
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
What actions their superiors and administrators have tried to justify in the last five years or so as a reasonable to this search is what I and many others here question. Weighing these justifications against our constituted freedoms and liberties; our privacy concerns; questionable due process at times; and economic (taxpayer) expense results in the heady discussions about what principles our government is operating under.
What Mats seems to suggest is that the TSA spends a lot of $$$ spinning its wheels over talking about, defining the mission of, getting bids on and building prototype schemes and analytical algorithms rather than "just doing it." He says quite succinctly:
"Given my limited experience with profiling interviews in South America, Europe, and Israel, there is nothing magical about behavioral analysis. The legendary Israeli security seems to be based on the notion of, 'see if the story checks out.' "
"Given my limited experience with profiling interviews in South America, Europe, and Israel, there is nothing magical about behavioral analysis. The legendary Israeli security seems to be based on the notion of, 'see if the story checks out.' "
The problem comes in with the "checking out" part - how much is too much? See, some here object to screening so heavily but would be more in favor of this "profiling" (checking out). Others would tell a "profiler" to go pound sand but are fine with more invasive weapons checks. Others want to be completely left alone. Where is the right balance, or is there one? If not, where does that leave us?
That's another discussion, under a different handle, for another time, at a different Web site.
Jun 16, 2007, 5:49 pm
#21
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see SPOT run
the SPOT folks at bos (you know the 2 state troopahs featured on 60 minutes who are now behavioral experts
) are gonna love me sept 30th.....
if there is not an airside smoking room (i know,) in the terminal, i will grab a coffee (dunks rules ^), hang outside smoking, walk the terminal 'n people watch (gotta spot those f/t luggage tags ), check the monitors to see if the inbound for my flight is on time, grab another cofee, etc., etc., etc....
i can't wait....
SPOT: 'scuse me, may i ask you a few questons
me: why did you spot training say that i was a threat.
(and we'll see where it goes from there)
or if i'm nice....
SPOT: 'scuse me, may i ask you a few questons
me: sure
SPOT: where are ou flying today?
me: home
(and we'll see where it goes from there)
and to totally mess with them, i will activate my dormant "had coah" boston accent so that now they have me speaking as a local with a ca d/l.
see SPOT run
the SPOT folks at bos (you know the 2 state troopahs featured on 60 minutes who are now behavioral experts
) are gonna love me sept 30th.....if there is not an airside smoking room (i know,
) in the terminal, i will grab a coffee (dunks rules ^), hang outside smoking, walk the terminal 'n people watch (gotta spot those f/t luggage tags ), check the monitors to see if the inbound for my flight is on time, grab another cofee, etc., etc., etc....i can't wait....
SPOT: 'scuse me, may i ask you a few questons
me: why did you spot training say that i was a threat.
(and we'll see where it goes from there)
or if i'm nice....
SPOT: 'scuse me, may i ask you a few questons
me: sure
SPOT: where are ou flying today?
me: home
(and we'll see where it goes from there)
and to totally mess with them, i will activate my dormant "had coah" boston accent so that now they have me speaking as a local with a ca d/l.
see SPOT run
Jun 16, 2007, 6:49 pm
#22
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 2,403
Goalie, I endorse the idea of SPOT without the power trip. If a friendly, cheerful TSA person is making smalltalk with everyone in the line, he or she would be in a perfect position to conduct SPOT in a pleasant, less offensive way.
Someone without a stupid badge could be checking IDs, making sure everyone's bags are in order, etc. and keeping eyes peeled for "suspicious" behavior without staring and asking canned, blunt questions.
This technique has been in London and a version of it is used in Israel. The staff at Ben Gurion Airport don't necessarily care that much what's in your suitcase or what your socks look like; they might be using that time to "chit chat."
The TSA, if it got rid of its institutionalized power trip, could use some of these tactics. Motivated, friendly screeners, who say hi to babies, who remember frequent flyers, and who make small talk can gain as much, if not more information than an in-your-face behavioral analysis program.
But this change would require an overhaul of the TSA culture. They are hell-bent on a "show of force" style (hmmm, that sounds a bit like the executive branch of our Federal government). To use behavioral analysis appropriately, they would need to restructure the nature of their operations, and brainwash/drug a lot of their employees.
But, once again, I'm living in a common sense universe.
Someone without a stupid badge could be checking IDs, making sure everyone's bags are in order, etc. and keeping eyes peeled for "suspicious" behavior without staring and asking canned, blunt questions.
This technique has been in London and a version of it is used in Israel. The staff at Ben Gurion Airport don't necessarily care that much what's in your suitcase or what your socks look like; they might be using that time to "chit chat."
The TSA, if it got rid of its institutionalized power trip, could use some of these tactics. Motivated, friendly screeners, who say hi to babies, who remember frequent flyers, and who make small talk can gain as much, if not more information than an in-your-face behavioral analysis program.
But this change would require an overhaul of the TSA culture. They are hell-bent on a "show of force" style (hmmm, that sounds a bit like the executive branch of our Federal government). To use behavioral analysis appropriately, they would need to restructure the nature of their operations, and brainwash/drug a lot of their employees.
But, once again, I'm living in a common sense universe.
Jun 16, 2007, 9:29 pm
#23
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There is good news and there is bad news.
The good news is intelligent people who are very highly trained can pick out many behaviours through reading gesture - whether of face or body. It goes much deeper than observing is someone is merely twitching.
The work of Dr. Paul Erdman in classifying facial expressions and gestrure over the past 30 years demonstrates this pretty well.
The bad news is that you must have trainable people who undergo long and careful education in the methodology. This means that it will never be implemented above the "paint by numbers" level thorugh group as large and as .... er, ... well not intelligent as the average TSA screener.
Just for fun, try this superficial facial test. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbo...es/index.shtml
Important, too, is to remember that these techniques do not enable complete mind reading ... but they can be a very important help in flagging people for more scrutiny. On of the most important things to train is respect for the limitations of the training!
The good news is intelligent people who are very highly trained can pick out many behaviours through reading gesture - whether of face or body. It goes much deeper than observing is someone is merely twitching.
The work of Dr. Paul Erdman in classifying facial expressions and gestrure over the past 30 years demonstrates this pretty well.
The bad news is that you must have trainable people who undergo long and careful education in the methodology. This means that it will never be implemented above the "paint by numbers" level thorugh group as large and as .... er, ... well not intelligent as the average TSA screener.
Just for fun, try this superficial facial test. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbo...es/index.shtml
Important, too, is to remember that these techniques do not enable complete mind reading ... but they can be a very important help in flagging people for more scrutiny. On of the most important things to train is respect for the limitations of the training!
Last edited by Teacher49; Jun 16, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Jun 16, 2007, 11:24 pm
#24
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,788
There is good news and there is bad news.
The good news is intelligent people who are very highly trained can pick out many behaviours through reading gesture - whether of face or body. It goes much deeper than observing is someone is merely twitching.
The work of Dr. Paul Erdman in classifying facial expressions and gestures over the past 30 years demonstrates this pretty well.
The bad news is that you must have trainable people who undergo long and careful education in the methodology. This means that it will never be implemented above the "paint by numbers" level thorugh group as large and as .... er, ... well not intelligent as the average TSA screener.
Just for fun, try this superficial facial test. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbo...es/index.shtml
Important, too, is to remember that these techniques do not enable complete mind reading ... but they can be a very important help in flagging people for more scrutiny. On of the most important things to train is respect for the limitations of the training!
The good news is intelligent people who are very highly trained can pick out many behaviours through reading gesture - whether of face or body. It goes much deeper than observing is someone is merely twitching.
The work of Dr. Paul Erdman in classifying facial expressions and gestures over the past 30 years demonstrates this pretty well.
The bad news is that you must have trainable people who undergo long and careful education in the methodology. This means that it will never be implemented above the "paint by numbers" level thorugh group as large and as .... er, ... well not intelligent as the average TSA screener.
Just for fun, try this superficial facial test. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbo...es/index.shtml
Important, too, is to remember that these techniques do not enable complete mind reading ... but they can be a very important help in flagging people for more scrutiny. On of the most important things to train is respect for the limitations of the training!
Poor sod.
Jun 17, 2007, 6:41 am
#25
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SPOT is a waste of money, a feel good measure to give authorities something that is neither needed nor effective given the relevant markets.
Jun 17, 2007, 8:17 am
#26
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BDOs may pick out a few fugitives, drug mules or other miscreants.
Terrorists ? No. Innocent passengers ? Thousands.
Jun 17, 2007, 11:48 am
#27
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Goalie, I endorse the idea of SPOT without the power trip. If a friendly, cheerful TSA person is making smalltalk with everyone in the line, he or she would be in a perfect position to conduct SPOT in a pleasant, less offensive way.
Someone without a stupid badge could be checking IDs, making sure everyone's bags are in order, etc. and keeping eyes peeled for "suspicious" behavior without staring and asking canned, blunt questions.
This technique has been in London and a version of it is used in Israel. The staff at Ben Gurion Airport don't necessarily care that much what's in your suitcase or what your socks look like; they might be using that time to "chit chat."
The TSA, if it got rid of its institutionalized power trip, could use some of these tactics. Motivated, friendly screeners, who say hi to babies, who remember frequent flyers, and who make small talk can gain as much, if not more information than an in-your-face behavioral analysis program.
But this change would require an overhaul of the TSA culture. They are hell-bent on a "show of force" style (hmmm, that sounds a bit like the executive branch of our Federal government). To use behavioral analysis appropriately, they would need to restructure the nature of their operations, and brainwash/drug a lot of their employees.
But, once again, I'm living in a common sense universe.
Someone without a stupid badge could be checking IDs, making sure everyone's bags are in order, etc. and keeping eyes peeled for "suspicious" behavior without staring and asking canned, blunt questions.
This technique has been in London and a version of it is used in Israel. The staff at Ben Gurion Airport don't necessarily care that much what's in your suitcase or what your socks look like; they might be using that time to "chit chat."
The TSA, if it got rid of its institutionalized power trip, could use some of these tactics. Motivated, friendly screeners, who say hi to babies, who remember frequent flyers, and who make small talk can gain as much, if not more information than an in-your-face behavioral analysis program.
But this change would require an overhaul of the TSA culture. They are hell-bent on a "show of force" style (hmmm, that sounds a bit like the executive branch of our Federal government). To use behavioral analysis appropriately, they would need to restructure the nature of their operations, and brainwash/drug a lot of their employees.
But, once again, I'm living in a common sense universe.
the other point you bring up is that tsa needs to lose the power-trip and i'm not even gonna go there as i think the only folks that don't agree that the tsa is on a power trip is the tsa themself (oh, wait, i just wen't there
)now, what's wrong with as you say, "living in a common sense universe"
*for those who are ex military, you know what i mean but for those who do not know.....90 day wonder = someone selected for officer candidate school and poof, in 90 days of "special training", they are an officer.
Aug 15, 2007, 11:57 pm
#28
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more on facial expressions
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/18923.html
yesterday article on tsa using people to look for facial expressions
yesterday article on tsa using people to look for facial expressions
Aug 16, 2007, 6:29 am
#29
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And how many terrorists and/or potential has SPOT uncovered? The number ZERO comes to mind. I would like to ask this question again in six months, and I suspect it would be the same answer.
Just more harassment from your US government via the TSA!
Just more harassment from your US government via the TSA!
Aug 16, 2007, 6:43 am
#30
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So can someone with Tourette Syndrome or someone with a medical condition that causes them to sweat profusely claim unlawful discrimination when targetted by security and law enforcement on the basis of their medical condition?