Terrorists who are hell-bent on killing thousands might just resort to killing a few individuals, and then assuming their identities. There's no shortage of bums here in LA that wouldn't be missed if they suddenly disappeared.

Of course, that assumes that terrorists who are hell-bent to kill thousands of us wouldn't simply fly under their own name. Much simpler and thus far, mighty effective.

Except in the minds of those few individuals who think that the terrorists can be screened against "lists" and somehow neutralized.

Bums with long credit histories, right?

Don't need a long credit history to fly as a passenger. People fly every day with no credit (or even derogatory credit) histories. Unless you're advocating a minimum FICO score to be allowed to fly (sorry, you're under 680 - no flight for you). Only thing the credit history does (and will ever do) is serve as a flag for extra screening, and the usefulness of that wasted time requires that you assume that the screening will relieve the bum of a "prohibited item" without which their plot will be unsuccessful. One would hope that our nation's security doesn't rely on such fanciful assumptions.

The "system" does not require a 15-20 year credit history...let's get serious. I don't even have a 20 year credit history, I am not old enough.

A terrorist can get ID with a birthdate that makes them 21 or 25 and then begin applying for credit and let things churn for 14-18 months...that is enough. Also the lack of a credit history or the presence of a bad one is not a special flag - does everyone with crappy credit or no credit get on the no-fly list or get SSSS on their boarding pass? No.

14-18 months of continuous banking, credit and residency at a single address will get you two things: into the 'system' cleanly and a heck of alot of marketing junk mail.

I agree and would like to elaborate.

Imagine the number of credt inquiries this would generate. I think it is common knowledge that the number of inquiries counts against the person's credit score. In other words, excessive flying may ruin your credit if this absurd idea is ever implemented.

Another question: How does a person's credit score correlate with the likelihood of this person being a terrorist?

And back to the basic question: What does extra screening really accomplish?

Rather than answer each similar observation, I just point out that you guys are all so willing to bet so many people's lives on your assumptions.. people that, over and over, tell their legislators that they don't like the way you think. You are also misunderstanding how this web of information could be used, whether deliberately or not, I couldn't say.

We have proven methods, committed killers, and unnetworked intelligence capable of, in many cases, smoking them out. But you are so concerned about your right to not have this information available to DHS that you will merrily put everyone at risk.

We're from the government and we're here to help.

Uh-huh.

Geez, who needs a bum?

They would just have to find someone who both looks similar to one of the terrorists and looks like he/she has a decent credit score. In the country where dogs get credit cards by mail, there's no shortage of such people.

"But but.... he had ID!"

Actually no.

What several people have pointed out to you is that it's trivial to either invent ID or simply steal it from someone--and the idea that you need to go as far as getting a passport is unrealistic.

All this networked intelligence will do is unncessarily invade the privacy of innocent Americans, or get every person with a vaguely Arab name onto the no-fly list (without any hope of ever getting it removed), all while providing exactly zero security benefit.

Oh please.

Everybody is at risk everytime they get on the plane. The only way to be absolutely safe is not to fly.

DHS doesn't need my information. It doesn't need yours, or anyone else's. It's none of their business if I'm not breaking the law. If it does need it, they can always go to court and get a subpoena for it and then arrest me if I'm that much of a threat. If giving them your info makes you feel better, go ahead.

Giving the information to DHS just creates additional risks while not doing anything for safety. Especially if that information is in the hands of government contractors like Choicepoint. If DHS really wanted to prove to people that they had their acts together, the no fly list would be a good start. That list alone shows they can't even get it right with what they have now. And they want MORE information? That's just asking for a disaster.

There is a such thing as too much information. And if you've ever done intelligence work (and I'm guessing you haven't), you'd know that most of it is useless and it's only a small portion that is actually useful. Yet it all must be gone thru. The government barely has enough resources (and in a lot of cases, I'd argue not enough) to do the job it's tasked to do. Adding 300 million people to it will overwhelm the system and then things REALLY won't get done.

Adding 300 million people to a database and all that information is just asking for trouble. Most of it will never be sorted thru, be littered with errors and inconsistencies. And we still won't be safer.

It's nice that you have faith in your government. Having been on the inside, I don't.

Super

We just disagree.

Yes, we do.

And what, exactly, do you suggest we do to people who don't have a 20 year credit history?

Have you ever driven a car? Statistically, you're putting a lot more people in danger by doing that than anyone here is doing by saying that someone shouldn't need a 20 year credit history to be allowed to use commercial transportation.

Can you explain in specific terms what you think DHS needs our library records, tax returns, credit histories and lists of telephone calls? What will they do with this, and why do they need it? Do you think that we should be "allowed" any privacy at all?

Rights and security need to be balanced. Things that add little to security but violate rights, liberty, privacy and freedom of hundreds of millions of Americans are bad.

East Germany kept extremely detailed records on at least a quarter of it's relatively small population. Much more detailed that the US could ever hope to keep on the American population. They were absolutely stunned by the fall of communism, too. All that digging, spying, facism and repression, and they still had no idea what was going on.

If one assumes for the moment that an individual or a group is planning to commit another 9/11-style hijacking operation; and, if you assume that these individuals have a high degree of probability of being on somebody's "list" or at least being flagged for SSSS, then it would make sense for this group to either fabricate a benign identity or steal someone else's identity.

Simply stealing an identity is an almost trivial act if you remember that stealing an identity to buy a plane ticket without drawing attention to yourself is a short-term proposition. Once, I had a credit card stolen or I dropped it and someone picked it up and started using it. I reported it less than 12 hours later as soon as I discovered it was missing. That was enough time for the thief to drive 100 miles away and charge about $500 of merchandise at several different stores.

In terms of getting through an airport checkpoint, all someone would have to do is to buy a plane ticket -- round trip -- using my credit card and make up a fake picture ID using my name and their own picture. All of this could be done before any system -- particularly one involving one of the famous "lists" -- flagged the credit card as stolen. Heck, if you do it within 24 hours of the flight you intend to hijack, you could go to a Kinko's and print out the boarding pass before the credit card was even reported stolen. I'm not sure that a stolen credit card would even set off the bells & whistles on one of the "lists" anyway. This would give a fake ID printing team plenty of time to make up something good enough to get through the checkpoint. The ID checkers -- including the intrepid TSA moat dragon -- only check names on the picture ID and the boarding pass. None of this discussion of establishing a track record even matters if you steal a credit card tied to an individual with a "track record" and use it right away to buy a ticket and print a boarding pass.

This scenario, because of the "last-minute purchase" component, might cause the bad guy(s) to be SSSS'd. But, if their plan calls for them to take control of the aircraft (or blow it up or whatever the objective is) without taking any prohibited items through the checkpoint (exactly what happened on 9/11), who cares if they're SSSS'd or randomly secondaried? The worst that will happen is that you'll get groped and yet another TSA officer will compare the name on the boarding pass with that on the fake ID.

Post 9/11 security is just like my home security system. The best I can hope to do is to defeat or deter the amateurs. The "professionals" can defeat either system with one hand tied behind their backs. So, if one is trying to explain why 9/11 hasn't happened again, the much-expanded and very expensive ID check system -- present and future -- is certainly not a good reason.

how dare they say they have the right to check my id, WHAT HAPPEND TO FREEDOM??

next thing you know, i wont be allowed to id minors trying to buy booze in my place of work because it infringes their constitutional right. and what the hell, i'll refuse to provide the state troopers my drivers licence after they pull me over for going 120 in a 50 zone. i want to stay anonymous.