Hi all,

Having gone through several check points throught USA in the past 2 weeks, i like to gauge your opinion to the shoe carnival before i write in a serious complaint letter and perhaps follow throught with their HR.
I am a non-US citizen so please excuse my ignorance if im not familiar with the slang being used or the culture.

I entered the USA on 5 July 2005 and exited on 15 July 2005.

Throught my entire stay, i flew from LAX to ORD(Los Angeles to Chicago)
ORD to IAD(Chicago to Washington Dulles Airport)
DCA to LAX via ORD(Washington to LAX)
LAX to HNL(Los Angeles to Hawaii, return)

Throught my trips, i encountered a few TSA folks, The friendliest, i have to stay is at Chicago who did things by the book, politely, sensitively and efficiently. as well as Hawaii.

The worst was at DCA. There is an incident i like to relate to you all and have your opinion before i write in.

For the sake of shortening this message, the TSA folks wanted me to take off my shoes. I was wearing blue sneakers which were less than 1 Inch. I asked for the supervisor and she threatened me that if i do not take off my shoes, i would go through secondary. She then says to let them do their job in a sarcastic manner. She further says that if i wish to fly today, i have to take off my shoes even if its less than 1 inch. What i did was to mention the 1 inch rule and asked twice if she was sure she wanted to do this and whether she approved the actions of the TSA agent. She answered yes to both questions. At all other check-points, i was never asked to take off my shoes.

The impression given to me at DCA airport is that TSA folks are allowed to exercise their discretion but they are also allowed to be rude and abusive to customers even if they are foreign nationals. I have also noticed discriminatory treatment towards me and other foreign nationals. We were talked to in a loud, threatening manner. At no point, was cultural sensitivity observed. For the record, i am not muslim and i look chinese.

My question to flyertalkers is this:
For the rule of 1 inch, its not a published rule. Is there any proof that only shoes less than 1 inch need to be taken off. If so, is there any official website that can back this up.

Personally, i am quite upset by the whole ordeal and felt extremely insulted as i was given the impression that tourists are not welcomed in the USA and especially in Washington DC. The TSA agents were VERY rude. Furthermore, i was given the impression that even though rules exist for teh behaviour of TSA folks, they do not have to follow it and can decide who to be nice and who not to be nice

Your opinions please,

Thank you

Welcome to our world.

Any wonder why Americans tend to be biased against starting new government bureaucracy to deal with an issue that private industry had previously handled competently?

On the specific question: It is a complete nonstarter. If the screener says take off your shoes or suffer secondary, there's nothing published by the TSA that you can use as a shield. Nothing.

The one inch sole thickness is an internal guideline for the screeners; it is not a hard and fast rule that prevents the mistreatment you suffered. If the screener reasonably estimates your shoes at one inch or greater, then off they come one way or another. They're gonna get x-rayed or you don't fly. Doesn't that ultimatum make your blood boil? It makes me madder than hell.

As an American, I am ashamed that you paid good money to be mistreated by losers employed by our government. In my entire life, I have never been so mistreated in the UK by anyone (not even at the UK airports post-September 11).

On my own behalf and on behalf of all similar-thinking Americans, allow me to apologize to you.

I'm sorry you had to deal with it. At least you're not a visitor and have to deal with it regularly, so there's at least some solace in that.

Here's something from a thread a few weeks ago that might be interesting to some:

"Take Scissors Away stated the following in a thread dated June 25, 2004:

This only applies to those wearing "non criteria" footwear.

When getting ready to walk thru and asked to take your shoes off, tell them it is not required. If you don't alarm, and are sent to 2ndary harrassment, play the game. When your shoes are wanded, and they don't alarm, and they ask you to remove your shoes, tell them it is not required. The screener "cannot demand" you remove your shoes, if they don't alarm the HHMD. If they give you any guff about this, ask to see a screening mgr. immediately !!
When he / she arrives, ask them "Why" you must remove your shoes ? If they give you the SOS about R. Reid, or that all shoes need to be screened, tell them to pull out the SOP dated 6/02/04 rev.4 change 2, and read sec. 10.1.3.b.

After reading this, they will probably give you a blank look, or some BS about " Well, at this airport, shoes are required to be removed !". NOT !!! Per SOP, local policy CANNOT "override, surpercede, or otherwise overrule" the SOP !! A FSD "DOES NOT" have the authority to deviate from the TSA mandated SOP...........period !!!!!!!"

And it is darn good world at that.

No apologizing from my keyboard. Take off your shoes and the travel experience will be a breeze. No hassles. No problems. Straight to the plane.

^ ^ ^ Once again we "tsk..tsk" around someone and make apologies for something that their actions provoked. Americans need to stop apologizing for every single perceived injustice in the world. REMOVE THE SHOES! So much easier, although makes for boring writing on f.t. and will have granola munchers telling you about your loss of personal freedoms. Oh, and by the way, I have been to the U.K. several times and witnessed nice/rude/indifferent people....just like the USA. In my many travels around the world I have found that your attitude, in most cases, is reflected back at you by strangers.

Have a great day all!

Taking off shoes -- esp. after making sure you have non-profile shoes (confirmed by other TSA agents at other screening points) is a hassle.

And it won't be any worse when they ask us to get in the boxcars. By the way, on the other side of the door is a shower.

It starts bit by bit.

I like to express my gratitue to everyone who has expressed their opinion and to SDF_traveler for that extremely nice private message. To FWAAA, a big thank you for making me feel welcomed by americans. At least there may be hope in finding a genuine, honest and sensitive american.

I kind of suspected that the 1 inch rule was only a guideline but had been fussed about here by frequent posters for its minor annoyance.

To be honest, i was kinda a bit upset by the impression left by the female supervisor more than the agent. I didnt raise my voice at any time but asked at least 3 times whether they were sure they wanted to do the shoe carnival and it was an obvious attitude of indifference towards reasonable travellers as well as not taking pride in doing your job. Either complaint letters are falling upon deaf ears or that employees can't be bothered.

I do have names and the TSA badge numbers but am not sure if its worth the effort.

The concern i have about the "shoe carnival" is that how safe and clean are those floors we are made to walk upon either with socks or bare feet. In the USA where details are sometimes hard to keep track,it is reasonable that someone will get some foot disease from being made to walk upon dubiously clean floors. If TSA make children take off their shoes, is it probable that it can be a source for hand, foot and mouth disease.

With the amount of discretion being allowed to TSA, i did bring it up with the United Ground security controller who promised to follow up with the FSD. Its questionable whether anyone is supervising TSA.

In some conversations with cabin crew of asian airlines, i've been told that the GSC has told them to just follow what the TSA asks as the TSA are the authority with screening and no point arguing with them.

Thats why i asked for opinions and am doubtful whether to send a letter to the FSD for DCA airport.

Hopefully, "BART" might read this thread and pass the feedback to his head office.

once again, thank you

You stated yourself that you were treated differently as you traveled throughout the U.S. How you are addressed in the southeast is NOT how you will be treated in the northeast or the northwest,southwest etc etc. Big cultural diffrence. Is it not like this were you are from? As far as complaining to the DCA FSD, he probably has the same attitude as his screeners. The whole northeast has a attitude problem.

Go ahead and quote the SOP if you want. Managers generally don't know the SOP and will more than likely call the cops for non compliance. Hell even ask to see the SOP

I see far more government screamers in the US than in the UK.

I see far more security cameras in the UK than in the US. An invasion of civil liberties?

Welcome to the "Club". Seriously there's a club . This happens all of the time and if the TSA actually did something about those TSA people who abuse the "Law", then the TSA would just about half their "Forces of Security". There's not much to do about the fact that a lot of TSA Security Personnel don't abide by the rules. They can make you do anything they want. Soon they'll be able to make you strip soon. If there was a great ting we could do about it, you would know already.

Unlike some others, I have no objection to having a camera where ever you might reasonably find a law enforcement officer. Street corners, banks etc are all fair game.

Oddly enough I had good experiences with TSA at MDW this week. On Monday they were very polite when I didn't take off my non-profile dress shoes. I had no intention of standing on one foot trying to put my shoes back on. I had to go to secondary after I didn't set of the metal detector. They happily retrieved my laptop with no argument. They wanded me...Swabbed my shoes to check for explosives and waved me through.

Same nice treatment in LA for the return. At least they did not try to be intimidating. They were quite pleasant!

I enjoy reading/participating in a good discussion as much as the next person and I'm all for everyone expressing their own opinion; however, thinking that shoe removal will lead to what happened in the Holocaust is just ignorant. I'm not trying to be rude but that is ridiculous. I know you are probably just trying to make a point but you didn't make it and you trivalized a tradegy.

OK, "shame on you" speech over.

Having said that, I think we all know that the shoe removal thing is just a part of the whole process and sometimes that process fails in places. I look at it this way, at least I have a pair of shoes to wear. When your biggest worry is being "hassled" over removing your shoes, then maybe you should find something else to worry about.

I don't really buy the "first it shoes, then what next". After all, it's not like you are being stopped on the street or in your homes and asked to remove your shoes. It's happening at a place that you chose to be at. Yeah, I know, you didn't choose, your work made you fly. If you really believe that this whole shoe removal thing is one more freedom taken away from you, then I've got a cabin up in Idaho that I'm willing to sell.

How come I hear all this noise about the shoes, but never seem to hear anything about looking through my bag as they x-ray it?

On the scale of injustices, I'm not sure that the shoe thing even makes the needle vibrate, let alone move.

Just my opinion and thank you for letting me express it....