I just don't see how the airline can argue that you are not entitled to a refund, even on a non-refundable ticket, when the TSA has drastically changed search procedures between the time you bought the ticket and the day of the flight. Especially when the change involves touching a passenger's sexual areas.

This is a classic bait-and-switch: the terms change after you purchase the ticket. It's not the airlines' fault; it's the TSA's for not giving the public adequate notice. Any change in search procedures should carry at least a one-year advance notice, because airlines sell tickets 364 days in advance.

Most airlines only sell 330 or 331 days in advance.

And, um, you think SSSS is a dumb way to tip off the bad guys? How about "We've discovered a new threat, and starting 332 days from now, we're going to search [insert body part here] more thoroughly to try to combat that threat." Please. The debatable "secureness" of current search procedures aside, if they want to implement a new procedure, they shouldn't have to notify the public a year in advance.

NW's CoC is pretty clear that secondary may happen, and that you are agreeing to be searched however TSA wants to do it when you buy your ticket.

If that's going to be a problem for you, maybe you should fly AA or UA, whose CoCs appear more lenient. I haven't looked at any CoCs besides NW, UA, and AA.

If it were up to the airlines, nobody would be haraSSSSed.

The TSA forces the airlines to choose X people to be haraSSSSed per the CRAPPS metrics.

It's like someone putting a gun to your head and telling you to choose someone on the airplane to be shot. After your selection is killed, the murderer tries to pin the rap on you, saying that you chose the person to be killed. Nice.

Technically, we don't know what the ticket says regarding searches until it is physically in our possession. Perhaps the airlines should be required to inform customers of the airline's position on refunds and the search procedures BEFORE purchasing their ticket, so the pax has an opportunity to say "thank you, I do not care to fly under those conditions."

The rules were in affect long before the TSA took over. It was an FAA rule in conjuction with the airlines that a % of passenger have additional screening. When the TSA took over they adopted the FAA rules. It was easier to do this than make up new rule in the time span they had. The airlines can deselect any passenger from additional screening. The problem is most agents do not have the knowledge to do it and it requires the supervisor ok. Most airlines will tell you they can't do it but if you complain enough they will.

http://www.aa.com/content/customerSe...Carriage.jhtml
http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,2743,00.html
http://www.nwa.com/contract.html
http://www.delta.com/home/notices/carriage/index.jsp
http://www.continental.com/travel/po...ct/default.asp
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/contract.html
http://www.airtran.com/info/policies/index.jsp

And so on.

Of course it's there, but go to, for instance, the American Airlines website and tell me how many layers you have to go through to find this information. There's not a category for "Customer Service" on the dropdown menu on the left side of the page; you have go to "Customer Commitment" before even beginning to find the CoC.

And if you're buying a ticket over the phone, you've no idea what you are getting yourself in for because they aren't going to voluntarily tell you.

It needs to be in big, bold letters on their website: By purchasing a ticket to fly on Such and Such Airlines, you acknowledge that you are aware that you may be subject to a physical search of your person before being allow to board your flight.

Yes, we can read the contracts of carriage in advance of buying the ticket, but being asked to agree to "a search" when the contract does not disclose the detail that your breasts may be squeezed by strangers, and when in fact on the day you bought the ticket there was no such breast grabbing in prospect, is dishonest on its face.

If you bought a car, and the contract said you agree to pay "a fee" for picking the car up, wouldn't you need to know how much that fee is? And if you asked how much the fee was, and were told that it is $50, but when you showed up to get the car they demanded $5000, wouldn't you say that's dishonest?

It's a bait and switch for TSA to change the terms of the search so drastically after you buy a ticket and then not force the airlines to refund you if you refuse the new search.

Yeah right.

Before 9/11, almost nobody was haraSSSSed. Now 15-20+% are. The airlines did not cause this increased haraSSSSment to occur, the TSA did.

^ ^

Exactly. I've been a frequent flyer for decades and not once have I ever been selected for secondary screening until after September 11, 2001. Never. Not SSSS'd, not random continuous secondary screening, nothing. My first secondary screening happened in late September, 2001. Before that, never. I suspect my experience is not unique.

I know, Everything Changed on September 11.

Regarding a different type of implicit consent, you consent to all terms in the Contract of Carriage and applicable fare rules/tariffs when you purchase the tickets. This is applicable to cancellation fees, overbooking procedures, and things like the statement where you agree to have your belongings searched at any time with or without your knowledge and you agree to your person being searched. If you don't agree with all the terms in the Contract of Carriage, you should not purchase the ticket.

From AdamK: "Regarding a different type of implicit consent, you consent to all terms in the Contract of Carriage and applicable fare rules/tariffs when you purchase the tickets. This is applicable to cancellation fees, overbooking procedures, and things like the statement where you agree to have your belongings searched at any time with or without your knowledge and you agree to your person being searched. If you don't agree with all the terms in the Contract of Carriage, you should not purchase the ticket."

Then you don't get it either, do you?

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Meade

The above quote from a website referencing the successful effort to return Pale Male to his nest site in NYC.

You can pull up any airline's CoC by going to google and typing in "site:_____.com contract of carriage" (where ____.com is the airline's website). That doesn't excuse them from making it hard to find through their own sites, however.

This has always been the case. The CoC is a dense, lengthy document, and the vast majority of pax have no interest in ever seeing it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the CoC evolved as part of deregulation The carriers converted the old fed regs into private "contracts" with the pax so that they could continue operating under essentially the same rules, but could tweak those rules when necessary. This is why so many airlines' CoCs have near-identical langugage and structure.

I believe NW has a big link to the CoC right before you hit "purchase." Don't know about other airlines. Most airlines also have signs at the ticket counters reminding you that your ticket is governed by the CoC--although that is a bit pointless now that so many people use self-service checkin methods.

Agreed. Many airlines' websites and other online travel agencies require you to click that you have read and agree to all terms/conditions of the fare (including the CoC), and evidently most people simply check the box. For example, Alaska has a check box and you have to " agree to the fare rules of this itinerary. "


Additionally, all departure gates, self-service check-in areas, and regular check-in areas are required to have copies of the contract of carriage available for inspection; they are also required to have signs stating this.

Furthermore, most ticket jackets (I don't know if this is the case now) have a clause stating airlines' limited liability. I don't know how many times I have seen a statement similar to "If you would like more information about our policies, ask an agent".

Thus, there are 4 ways for the passenger to become aware of the contract of carriage and fare rules: at time of purchase, at check-in, on your ticket jacket, and at the gate.

If one really wants to view the Contract of Carriage, it is easily available on the airlines' websites, as themicah pointed out. Many airlines will also mail you a complimentary copy upon request.

I maintain that it is the passenger's responsibility to inform him or herself of the contract he or she is entering into before purchasing a ticket. Although we can't agree to secret regulations (like the TSA), the CoCs are published and easily available.

red456, I'm afraid I do not understand your argument or previous statements. The clause I found about security in UA's CoC was not "buried." In fact, I used the handy search feature in Acrobat Reader and found the appropriate section in well under 15 seconds. Could you explain to me what would constitute "not buried" for you?

Also, you state that the telephone agents will not "volunteer" information over to you regarding CoC and policies. Has it occurred to you to actually ask the agent about their policies regarding the subject you're interested in? I have done that many times and they have been extremely helpful and polite. The average customer, however, does not want to hear about the many reasons one could be refused transport every time they call the airline.

Adam

I'd have to say this is the real issue. We are agreeing to the contract of carriage without being advised about the manner in which the search will be conducted. In this case, the manner in which they are being conducted has changed drastically from the time of purchase, so shouldn't that nullify any prior agreement to cooperate with a prior form of search?